More randomness, please?

[Qui]

I feel like ADoM could do with a little bit more randomness, but decided to post here first before making RFEs, just to see if anyone agrees.

Things I think could use some work:

1. Fixed maps.

a) Mazes that are not really mazes anymore.

For example: Pyramid. A dangerous maze full of traps, but experienced/spoiled players will go straight to the stairs. Or even teleport straight to the stairs. Making a dungeon generator specifically for the Pyramid levels might be a waste of TB's time, but perhaps having a few different maps would help. I'd propose having a few versions of the same basic map, with only the stair chamber location in a different place, so that one couldn't tell at first sight which one is it. At the very least, figuring out where are the stairs would require magic mapping.

Current Pyramid level 2:

   ###         ###### #######
   #.###########....# #^^^^^#
   #....^.....##.######1###^#####
  ####.######....#.....^.##^#...#
  #....# ####.####.####.###^1.<.#
  ##^### #....^.....# #.# ###...#
 ###.# ###.########.#############
 #.#####........# #....##....#
 #.##....>.###.####.#####.#####
##.##.##...# #.#...........##.#
#.....########.#.##.###^#####.#
#####.....##.#.#.######.......#
  #...###.##.######.....###.###
  ##### #.....#   #.##### #.#
        #######   ###     ###

Possible alternative:

   ###         ###### #######
   #.###########....# #^....#
   #....^.....##.######1###^#####
  ####.######....#.....^.##^#...#
  #....# ####.####.####.###...###
  ##^### #....^.....# #.# ###...#
 ###.# ###.########.#############
 #.#####........# #....##....#
 #.##....>.###.####.#####^#####
##.##.##...# #.#........1^^^^^#
#.....########.#.##.###^#####1#
#####.....##.#.#.######...#...#
  #...###.##.######.....###.<.#
  ##### #.....#   #.##### #...#
        #######   ###     #####

In this category I'd see 2 Pyramid levels, and underground level with Griff and Nonnak. And maybe parts of Darkforge with the secret doors.

b) Elemental Temples

This I don't find as pressing, but maybe a few different layouts of each temple would be nice? Just for some variety (similar to how the branch ends work in DCSS - there are few possible layouts for each, one is randomly chosen each game)

2. Guaranteed artifacts

I don't know if it's just me, but they are pretty damn strong. And I don't mean TotRR or Needle + Sting, which aren't problematic as they are endgame+ weapons.

Ancient Mummy Wrapping - guaranteed source of see invisible, cold immunity, death ray resistance. Having this pretty much renders 3rd and 4th dwarven quests trivial.
Elemental Gauntlets - well, free artifact gauntlets. They are not super powerful maybe, but there isn't much competition for the slot anyway.
Sword of Nonnak - free +5 Wi for mages. Perhaps not that problematic.
Rune-covered trident - now that is problematic, especially for Raven characters. Guaranteed powerful undead and demon slayer at level 36 that you can plan for is neat. At level 16 (or as soon as some sort of water-breathing and teleport is available) is sort of too much.
Elemental Orbs - +10 Wi for mages, +10 St for the rest, just for carrying these around? Now that the corruption levels are going to be reduced, maybe carrying orbs should corrupt too? Although I would not like to see kicking the orbs down to D:48 become optimal play .

Now, what to do with these? I'm not sure. Nerf a bit, or make non-guaranteed. For example, have Rehetep drop ankh or the wrapping, not both. Or a heavier alignment hit for digging up Nonnak.

3. Artifacts in general

Well, they are always the same, each game. Now, I am not proposing "randarts" or anything of the sort. What I'm proposing is a small variance in the artifact properties between games. Let's take Rolf's Companion:

It modifies your toughness attribute by +3.
It grants resistance to fire.
This weapon returns when thrown.

It could have 25% chance to also grant shock resistance, 25% chance to also have +3 Str, 10% chance to grant fire immunity instead of resistance (just an example). What it would do is randomize the game a bit, make scrolls of greater identify more useful, and possibly allow TB to add some super-rare 1 in 10000 properties .

Not sure how viable from the coding point of view this is, though.

[infe]

Sorry for my english! When i think about ADOM in general the last thing that comes to my mind is lack of randomness, yet i have to agree with everything you wrote. Guaranteed artifacts are very powerfull indeed. Making them exclusive( AMW vs buffed Ankh, Elemental Gauntlets vs Sword of Nonnak) would work -especially if we could decide somehow which one we get. If Orbs in tool slot would grant you doomed or some corruption per turn (both lowered with elemental gauntlets on- would punish casters for chooseing easy +5 Wi) it would be ok. As for rune-covered trident for non-raven born PCs its just ok weapon -nice to know that you can stab some balors with it if RNG didnt gave you something else before. For ravenborn it would be nice to set it at 21-23 level - it would be tricky to get it before ToEF but not impossible and if you can get Orb of Fire before massenger pops you most likely can win without that trident.
Im a bit worried about changing guaranteed artifacts because they feel mandatory when it comes to ride ToEF with weaker classes or not so lucky PCs. That indestructable +10 to PV and other usefull stats and instricts not only easier my way to casino but also made it possible. For example: It would take hell of a lot of skill and luck to tackle ToEF without that protection for rings that elemental gauntlets provide.

[Stingray1]

I love the random maps idea. Maybe even the guaranteed items on PL:1 should be in a different position in different games. I think the Creator is even capable of taking the upstairs, items room and guaranteed traps rooms/corridors and semi-randomize their positions and fully randomize the rest of the levels.

With regards to guaranteed artifacts, the artifacts is almost going to double. How about if some of the new artifacts become a possible alternative, so in one game you'll find the current one and in the next game you'll maybe find one or even another one of the new artifacts?

It is a bit boring that most every character ends up wearing the same gauntlets every game.

[Carter]

Sorry, can't really agree with the "Guaranteed artifacts are too powerful"

ie:

The elemental guantlets are a bit special - i think they are staying as a "always" item since they provide the corruption reduction + resistances you need for the tower, but i do like the idea of randomness, so your AMW isn't always a [1,5], it might be a [2,4] or something.

the AMW is generally needed because it has a source of death resistance which is critical for the archmage, so you can't simply remove it and say that its bad luck if you don't stumble upon another item with that resistance .

I think the game is hard enough without dicking around with the guaranteed items that are pretty important to win the game.

[Stingray1]

Well, I think about half of my characters that reached D:50 either never obtained the elemental gauntlets and AMW or fed them to the demented ratling fairly early.

So, you'll understand if I don't think they are so invaluable. Obviously not important in the sense you might be thinking of to win the game

[SirTheta]

The whole point of some of the guaranteed artifacts is that if you retrieve them, it makes some subsequent challenges easier. That's why they are placed where they are instead of in some random other place further in the game. I guess I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit of randomization for elemental temples/the Pyramid/Griffyard, but a lot of this requested randomness would harm the game, imo.

[anon123]

The Pyramid is already perfectly balanced and it beautifully avoids the "bragging rights item drop" effect. The AMW and ankh are good, good enough to be worn well into the endgame, but not ridiculously powerful nor a guarantee of winning the game by any means. I think there's no need to touch this, be it by altering their stats, only dropping one of either or anything else.

If you don't like that there's "no competition" for e.g. the elemental gauntlets, remember there's forty-something new artifacts waiting to be implemented, and if that RFE to allow prefixes and suffixes on more pieces of armor passes (which I hope it does), even better.

The Chaos Orbs needn't corrupt the PC either. The stat bonuses are big, but you can only equip one at a time, and of their 'u'sable effects healing is the only useful one in my opinion (maybe the mana refill too depending on the circumstances, but that corrupts tremendously).

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I agree with Carter, SirTheta and anon about the guaranteed artifacts. They are clearly designed as they are for a reason and they are well-balanced. Removing any of them would have a negative impact on the game.

The AMW guarantees that you don't need to scum for sources of -Deth for the Archmage, and careful players can get it before facing Li-Hon-Kay. It also has already been nerfed for p21, as it decreases Ap, and I think that will be an interesting tradeoff.

The Ankh is a very good artifact that I personally like to wear until the endgame, but many people prefer an amulet of free action, so it's clearly not OP. It's also worse than the non-guaranteed artifact amulets.

The elemental gauntlets give the player a good foundation for protection in the ToEF, as they not only give one resistance but also protect your rings of ice and fire resistance. Removing them would make many PC's need to grind for items for the ToEF, thus it would make the game more boring. By the way, there is now a pair of non-guaranteed artifact gauntlets, the fencing gloves of St. Montojja, which is pretty awesome, so I wouldn't say the elemental gauntlets are still a must-have item now - and we can always suggest more gauntlets if needed.

Sword of Nonnak is a situational artifact that doesn't really get much use.

The RCT is a good resource, but it comes too late in the game to be a must-have item. Even with Raven-born characters I typically get it when I'm fighting the balors. Comes handy against them, but hey, that gives the Raven starsign some spice, I don't see anything bad about that. Non-Ravens get it so late that it's not even very useful in most of the cases.

The elemental orbs are powerful but hey, they are the Chaos Orbs, dammit! What did you expect them to give, [+1,+0] and sleep resistance? They also add interesting choices in that when you have several, you need to choose which one to carry in the tool slot.

So a big no to making guaranteed artifacts non-guaranteed. A definite yes to some randomization in currently fixed levels like the Pyramid, though.

[Carter]

The Ankh is a very good artifact that I personally like to wear until the endgame, but many people prefer an amulet of free action, so it's clearly not OP. It's also worse than the non-guaranteed artifact amulets.

Lost too many characters to mimics to ever wear the ankh when an amulet of free action is available. Overrated

[Carter]

The elemental gauntlets give the player a good foundation for protection in the ToEF, as they not only give one resistance but also protect your rings of ice and fire resistance. Removing them would make many PC's need to grind for items for the ToEF, thus it would make the game more boring. By the way, there is now a pair of non-guaranteed artifact gauntlets, the fencing gloves of St. Montojja, which is pretty awesome, so I wouldn't say the elemental gauntlets are still a must-have item now - and we can always suggest more gauntlets if needed.
.

pretty sure its a bug they aren't generated randomly atm.