Berserk tactics, so much the norm.

[Stingray1]

... it always kind of baffled me why tactics setting applied to missle combat [well, except the obvious explanation of being the easiest way to code]

Well, as I see tactics settings it is concentrating more on your attack and less on your defense when set towards the aggressive side of things and vice versa.

So, even for archery you are concentrating more on being accurate(precise) the more aggressive the setting.

That is why in my mind I explained it this way to myself.

I suggest you to wait until pre21, you may reconsider your opinion.

Good point, we might need all the overpoweredness we can gather.

[SirTheta]

Soirana is right...it's not berserk tactics that are broken, but berserk tactics (and tactics in general) applying to missiles.

[sylph]

Personally, I don't think berserk missiles are broken at all. They already apply to missiles less than they do to melee... There are *times* when it's a good idea to defensively missile, because missiles have such a high +tohit that they are also quite effective under the 'coward' setting, so I find myself using coward missiles almost as often as I use berserk if I'm in melee or expecting return fire.
i think the tactics setting offers a *massive* amount of strategic depth to ADOM, and removing it (or making it take a turn to switch) would have to be justified with a similar replacement in tactics. that is to say, if the concern is that tactics make the game too easy, I'd advise making monsters stronger, rather than removing our tactical choices as a player.

Oh, and while I'm on the subject, despite the current implementation of tacticcs, neither melee nor missile weapons are anywhere near as strong as spellcasting at the moment.

[SirTheta]

The problem is that no matter how much 'less' they apply, it's still completely broken. There are very few non-spellcasting ranged attack monsters in the game that are a serious threat [really, off the top of my head: fire giant king, titan, greater titan]. Sure, there are some very rare situation where you don't want to be in berserk tactics for missiles, but they are so rare as to not even figure in the argument. There is little drawback to being in berserk while shooting missiles most of the time, since the idea is that you aren't in melee range a good chunk of the time. Whereas when you are in berserk in melee, you are much more likely to be hit, and unless you can kill everything in the game in one shot (you can't), that presents a trade-off.

In ideal world, spellcasting would have progressively higher chance to fail when below normal, that would fix a lot of things. But it's another symptom of tactics being broken for non-melee.

[anon123]

Tactic-switching is one of those tricks that increases your average PC's lifespan when you're new to the game and ever since; and berserk archery is another potentially life-saving technique. It might not make much sense, but there's no reason everything in the game must be realistic. As a game mechanic, I think they're already well-balanced by their direct penalties and/or secondary effects (can't train shields on berserk, can't train weapons if too defensive). ADOM is already hard to win with these advantages, there's no need to make it harder.

PS: if you think Berserk is overpowered, try berserking the Bug Temple in melee

[SirTheta]

PS: if you think Berserk is overpowered, try berserking the Bug Temple in melee

This guy didn't have much trouble http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/sir...s/litrully.flg

Then again, I've also died to a greater claw bug in a D:48 mixed tension room on a gnome barb w/ Vanquisher

[Soirana]

Tactic-switching is one of those tricks that increases your average PC's lifespan when you're new to the game and ever since; and berserk archery is another potentially life-saving technique. It might not make much sense, but there's no reason everything in the game must be realistic. As a game mechanic, I think they're already well-balanced by their direct penalties and/or secondary effects (can't train shields on berserk, can't train weapons if too defensive). ADOM is already hard to win with these advantages, there's no need to make it harder.

Could you repeat, which of penalties do apply to berserk archery? [for record my preferred weapon on archer used to be quicksilver quaterstaff, shields... yeah.]

As game being hard.... it is mostly hard since one does not use all tricks. As they get added it becomes progressively easier. If all tricks need to preserve or not is overall valid question.
I think boring ones - which are dead simple to apply and have no trade off - might as well go away. Berserk archery is clearly boring one.

[Moeba]

For meleeing, I generally prefer 'very agressive' as the berserk removes much more DV. In fact, when surrounded by 3 or more monsters I usually fight with very defensive on, since the DV bonus given much more benefit then. I do agree that the missile bonus for berserk is hugely overpowered; I would go for giving it no bonus to hit although giving bonus damage. Then it's still somewhat overpowered, but I think that's mainly because there are too little NPC's with good ranged attacks.

[SirTheta]

The +damage is the overpowered part of berserk missiles, not the +to-hit...

[Superteeth]

If I have a melee tank with no spells (which I usually do), the only way I do the Bug Temple is using berserk tactics and melee. The bugs go down in one hit that way, assuming I don't miss (and the chances of missing go down in berserk).

I don't think berserk is "broken", but I do think it is odd that spellcasters can be so proficient at fighting hand-to-hand (whereas melee-oriented characters can't really get much out of spellcasting). But that is another topic entirely.