First two wins (both melee-oriented gateclosers) and opinions on the difficulty

[moozooh]

After about 14 years of playing this game on and off, I've finally found myself able to more-or-less consistently complete it. And with my universal passion for melee characters in RPGs, the first two wins are with a drakish duelist and, the more recent one, with an orcish beastfighter, both on p20.

<snip>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Background Information
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: SporkTheOrc         Race: male Orc            Class: Beastfighter
Eye color: brown          Hair color: black         Complexion: brown
Height: 5'11"             Weight: 194 pounds
Age: 17 (grown-up)
Star sign: Book           Birthday: 6/Book (day 36 of the year)

<snip>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 7407 stones                Carrying capacity: 77575 stones

Head          : uncursed crown of leadership [+2, +7] {Ch+18}         [65s]
Neck          : blessed sapphire amulet "Preserver" [+4, +4] {Wi+7}    [3s]
Body          : uncursed robes of resistance (-4, -4) [+3, +12] {To+5}[60s]
Girdle        : blessed girdle of giant strength [+0, +0] {St+14}     [30s]
Cloak         : blessed cloak of invisibility (-1, +0) [+1, +2]       [30s]
Right Hand    : -
Left Hand     : -
Right Ring    : uncursed ring of mental stability [+1, +1] {Le+4}      [1s]
Left Ring     : blessed ring of the master cat [+0, +5] {Dx+16} (+16 spd)
Bracers       : uncursed bracers of war [+8, +4] {Dx+8}               [10s]
Gauntlets     : blessed fencing gloves of fidelity [+5, +2] {Ch+3}     [6s]
Boots         : uncursed eternium boots [+3, +5]                      [55s]
Missile Weapon: blessed heavy crossbow "The Far Slayer" (+18, +18)   [350s]
Missiles      : blessed obsidian quarrel "Thunderstroke" (+8, 20d4+8)  [2s]
Tool          : uncursed pick axe (+0, 1d6+4)                         [75s]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total weight: 6719 stones   Carrying capacity: 77575 stones

<snip>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Weapon Skills
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Melee weapon           Lvl   Hit   Dam   DV   Level          Required marks
---------------------  ---   ---   ---   --   -------------  --------------
Unarmed fighting        14   +12   +10  +10   Mastery              8580
Daggers & knives         1    +1    +0   +0   basic                25
Clubs & hammers          2    +2    +0   +0   basic                20
Maces & flails           1    +1    +0   +0   basic                25
Swords                   1    +1    +0   +0   basic                25
Axes                     1    +1    +0   +0   basic                25
Whips                    1    +1    +0   +1   basic                25
Pole arms                1    +1    +0   +0   basic                25
Twohanded weapons        1    +1    +1   +0   basic                25
Staves                   1    +1    +0   +1   basic                25

Missile weapon         Lvl   Hit   Dam   Ra   Level          Required marks
---------------------  ---   ---   ---   --   -------------  --------------
Slings                   0    +0    +0   +0   unskilled            7
Bows                     4    +8    +6   +1   skilled              10
Crossbows               12   +24   +18   +4   Mastery              453
Thrown axes & hammers    0    +0    +0   +0   unskilled            7
Thrown daggers           0    +0    +0   +0   unskilled            7
Thrown rocks & clubs     0    +0    +0   +0   unskilled            7
Thrown spears            0    +0    +0   +0   unskilled            7
Boomerangs & scurgari    0    +0    +0   +0   unskilled            7

Shields                Lvl   DV               Level          Required marks
---------------------  ---   ---              -------------  --------------
Shields                  0    +0              unskilled            15


Damage caused with your melee weapons:
--------------------------------------
Right hand: +291 bonus to hit, 1d36+129 damage


Damage caused with your missile weapons:
----------------------------------------
Ammunition: 1, base range: 31, +161 bonus to hit, 20d4+101 damage



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Skills
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Alchemy .................. 63    (good)         [+1]
  Athletics ................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Backstabbing .............100    (superb)       [+1d3]
  Climbing .................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Courage ..................100    (superb)       [+1d3]
  Detect traps .............100    (superb)       [+1d5]
  Dodge ....................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Find weakness ............100    (superb)       [+1d5]
  First aid ................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Gardening ................ 62    (good)         [+1]
  Gemology .................100    (superb)       [+1]
  Haggling ................. 69    (good)         [+1d3]
  Healing ..................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Herbalism ................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Law ......................100    (superb)       [+1d3]
  Listening ................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Literacy .................100    (superb)       [+1]
  Metallurgy ............... 63    (good)         [+1]
  Mining ...................100    (superb)       [+1]
  Pick pockets .............100    (superb)       [+1d3]
  Smithing ................. 50    (fair)         [+1]
  Stealth ..................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Survival .................100    (superb)       [+1d5]
  Swimming .................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Tactics ..................100    (superb)       [+1]
  Two weapon combat ........ 59    (good)         [+1]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Spells
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

<snip>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              His further life:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

After he leaves the Drakalor Chain he is welcomed by his people with great
honors. They acknowledge his noble deeds, his valor, his cunning and his
great skills that helped to prevent the complete destruction of the world he
knows. He is crowned to be the king of all orcs and lives a long and
prosperous life full of power, happiness and pleasure.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              His achievements during his adventures:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SporkTheOrc, the orcish beastfighter, saved the world with his brave efforts
and became a great ruler while saving himself 14 times.
He scored 27757012 points and advanced to level 50.
He survived for 0 years, 81 days, 9 hours, 10 minutes and 10 seconds (186451
turns).
1 companion was killed during his adventures.
SporkTheOrc visited 147 places.
His strength score was modified by +33 during his career.
His learning score was modified by +25 during his career.
His willpower score was modified by +24 during his career.
His dexterity score was modified by +24 during his career.
His toughness score was modified by +34 during his career.
His charisma score was modified by +18 during his career.
His appearance score was modified by +26 during his career.
His mana score was modified by +20 during his career.
His perception score was modified by +18 during his career.
He was the champion of the arena.
He was the head of the thieves guild.
He made a little water dragon very happy.
He brought back joy into the life of a tiny girl.
He killed the emperor of the ancient minotaur race.
He defeated the arch enemy of a mighty karmic wyrm.
He adhered to the principles of the Cat Lord and thus rose to great fame.
He stopped the generation of nasty bugs.
He saved Khelavaster from certain death.
He left the Drakalor Chain after completing his quest and became a great
leader and famous hero.
10173 monsters perished under his attacks.
The following 35 artifacts were generated during his adventure:
  the si
  the dwarven rune axe "Rolf's Companion"
  the scythe of corruption "Moon Sickle"
  the ring of the master cat
  the potion of literacy
  the golden gladius "Death's Sting"
  the Chaos Orb of Elemental Water
  the Chaos Orb of Elemental Air
  the Chaos Orb of Elemental Fire
  the Chaos Orb of Elemental Earth
  the heavy crossbow "The Far Slayer"
  the obsidian quarrel "Thunderstroke"
  the lead-filled mace "Big Punch"
  the mighty morning star "Grod"
  the rune-covered trident
  the sword of Nonnak
  the elemental gauntlets
  the ring of the High Kings
  the phial of Caladriel
  the crown of science
  the ancient mummy wrapping
  the ankh
  the hammer of the gods
  the black torc
  the bracers of war
  the Chaos Orb of Elemental Mana
  the black rune-covered dagger "Needle"
  the black rune-covered dagger "Sting"
  the fine leather armor "Nature's Companion"
  the robes of resistance
  the sapphire amulet "Preserver"
  the crown of leadership
  the emerald dagger "Serpent's Bite"
  the rune-covered halberd "Wyrmlance"
  the axe of the minotaur emperor
He possessed the following intrinsics:
  He was fire resistant (also through an item).
  He was poison resistant (also through items).
  He was acid resistant (also through an item).
  He was lucky (also through items).
  Fate smiled upon him (also through an item).
  He was petrification resistant.
  He was able to control teleportation.
  He was invisible (gained through an item).
  He was stun resistant (also through an item).
  He was paralyzation resistant (gained through an item).
  He was resistant to death rays (gained through an item).
  He was shock resistant (also through an item).
  He was able to see invisible things (also through items).
  He was immune to shock attacks.
  He was able to resist confusion attacks (gained through items).
He had the following talents: Affinity with Crossbows, Aggressive, Alert,
Brawler, Careful, Good Shot, Healthy, Keen Shot, Long Stride, Miser, Natural
Berserker, Quick, Quick Shot, Sixth Sense, Stealthy, Treasure Hunter, Very
Quick.
He had a final speed score of 378 (final base speed: 166).
He was a messiah of The One Who Sees.
He asked for 7 divine interventions.
He was a holy champion of Order.

<snip>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                               Playing Time
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You played for 46 hours, 26 minutes and 42 seconds.

This score would put me at top-15 on ancardia.uk.to p16-20 score list. Not bad!

When I got my first clear with a duelist, I thought that was OP: I could literally dance around everything without giving it as much as a chance to attack me at all, let alone actually hit. So I figured, I needed a more handicapped character that would still be a melee specialist. A beastfighter seemed alright with their inability to properly wield weapons, initial illiteracy, and the lack of significant class powers (except the one that decreases the energy cost of movement). Besides, orcs are dumb, and beastfighters rely on gaining levels to maintain their power output as much as they rely on gaining strength (...or so I thought). Now, I didn't want to go overboard with handicapping either, so I still tried to use every trick in the book to win and get a high score.

And the first 11 levels or so did seem rather challenging at first. And then I got my precrowning with a Thunderstroke, and monsters that were too dangerous to melee have become all but a complete pushover. And then I raided Darkforge and got paralyzation resistance, teleport control, and three wishes pretty much in a row: amulet of life saving, seven league boots, girdle of giant strength. And the difficulty disappeared pretty much entirely.

From that point onwards I didn't have to farm stomafillia, didn't stairhop in ID, didn't rob any stores, didn't abuse the Casino gold, didn't have to pickpocket anything past the first elemental temple, didn't have to use potions of youth, didn't have to use any spells, or prayers to save my life. The only potions of extra/ultra healing I drank I did so right before leaving the Drakalor Chain to have higher stats. I even ate the Ancient Stone Beast just for the hell of it, as I had about ten blessed scrolls of corruption removal left at that point, and still no unicorn quest. Fistanarius was traditionally killed in melee. Despite my initial hopes of playing a handicapped character, I ended up leaving the chain with higher stats in half the in-game time than I did with my duelist.

I used pretty much the same route as the last time: Terinyo (get quests) -> kill Kranach -> Terinyo (get quest reward) -> Puppy Cave (dog retrieval) -> Terinyo (get quest reward) -> Lawenilothehl (get pickpocketing, walk-id items, sell unneeded items, stash items for future use) -> Puppy Cave (cleanup) -> Druid Dungeon (except the last level; looking for altars) -> Small Cave -> High Mountain Village -> Precrowning 1 & 2 -> Arena (19 fights) -> Dwarftown (get quests) -> Darkforge (powerleveling, wishes, items to sell and/or use) -> Lawenilothehl (get Trap Detection, kill Hotzenplotz and Kranf Niest, stash items) -> Dusty Dungeon (wand of teleportation retrieval) -> Pyramid -> High Mountain Village (sell items, kill and eat the Oracle) -> Druid Dungeon (cleanup) -> Lawenilothehl (train with and kill Yergius, buy needed items) -> Terinyo (get quest rewards) -> Griffyard -> Water Dragon Cave -> Terinyo -> nearest altar (crowning) -> Small Clearing (get the quest) -> Assassin guild (cleanup) -> Gremlin Cave (phial retrieval) -> Tomb of the High Kings (cleanup) -> upper CoC (get quest rewards, post-championship Arena fights) -> Minotaur Maze -> CoC dive (save Khelavaster, Water temple) -> ToEF -> CoC dive -> exit through level 32 shortcut -> Small Clearing (get quest reward) -> High Mountain Village (sell items, retrieve SoCRs) -> Rift -> Library -> final CoC dive (get the cats eye ring, retrieve the orbs, powerlevel in Blue Dragon Caves, kill the ancient blue wyrm, close the gate) -> Terinyo (get unicorn quest) -> Quickling Tree (if needed corruptions are present, not this time though) -> Unicorn glade (get quest reward) -> exit DC.

This route can definitely be optimized (quite a bit of backtracking was involved), though it largely depends on luck with optimal altar placements for (pre-)crowning. It would be revised for a challenge victory or an extended game victory.

My thoughts are summed up as follows.

1. The hardest part of the game is between levels ~6 to ~16. This is typically when the lack of proper resistance or PV is fatal. This part of the game is very largely governed by RNG with regards to intrinsic harvesting and increasing piety for free artifacts. If you manage to survive until clvl 16, get at least some of the crucial rare intrinsics (teleport control, stun resistance, paralyzation resistance—the rest are comparatively easy to obtain), and retrieve the two Pyramid artifacts, you have a very high chance at clearing the game. If you find an altar in a mid-danger zone or in a zone where you can use a scroll of danger, you have a very high chance of clearing the game. The first two precrownings are typically very easy to obtain, so you're pretty much guaranteed to have three gifted artifacts before level 20.

2. Not nearly enough monsters adjust to PC's power. Boss monsters absolutely should. Royalty monsters and unique monsters mostly should as well. So far it seems that every unique monster except Keriax, Nuurag-Vaarn, and ACW are just pinatas (although even ACW can die from a single blessed potion of cure corruption). This adjustment thing by itself isn't even as bad as it seems: I've meleed both greater molochs and doppelganger kings with my either character without fail.

3. Not nearly enough challenging monsters in late game in general. This is, as I understand, to be fixed in the next beta, so I won't comment further on that point.

4. There are too many best-in-slot items, and some of them are extremely easy to obtain. Those who go with two-handed weapons will use Axe of the Minotaur Emperor. At least one returning (and slaying) artifact missile is guaranteed by level 36. Fire and Water orbs are by far the best tool slot items for melee and mage classes, respectively. The artifact bracers and cloak are so much better than any non-artifact counterpart it's not even funny. There should be more options for such items to dilute the item pool and provide different benefits to consider.

5. It's too easy to min-max. Elemental resistances become near-useless in late game, since the PC would typically have one of each intrinsically, and two more counts on each from numerous artifacts and rare non-artifact items (RotHK and elemental gauntlets alone cover the needs for elemental resistances when combined with intrinsics, and both are guaranteed). Stuff like death rays, sleep, and petrification resistance becomes a non-issue in late game because only a couple enemies in the game ever use it, and even then it's easy to avoid by various means (and there's a guaranteed artifact... you get it). You don't need extreme combinations of prefixes and suffixes to deal motherloads of damage with one-handed weapons, either, and you're almost guaranteed to find a sword of sharpness or some weapon of penetration, which are typically good enough to last you through the entire game.

6. Speed is overrated. Energy cost is a lot more effective and has no downsides at all. Speed, on the other hand, enjoys diminishing returns after about 120-125, which, combined with Long Stride, already allow one to outrun roughly 98% of enemies, including most of the dangerous ones. Bringing one's speed to 120-125 can be very easily achieved by guaranteed or semi-guaranteed means, too.

7. Not nearly enough monsters are protected from missiles like doppelgangers are. I don't think this needs to be elaborated for anyone who has ever used slaying ammunition or returning artifacts. Missiles like those essentially turn on the easy mode.

8. Food is too easy to obtain and retain for non-trolls. Not sure what to do with this one, but I expected a lot more food problems, being an invisible orc with no Food Preservation and a couple dozen artifacts in my inventory. I had none, even in the Minotaur Maze.

I'm open for ideas on more challenging future attempts. For instance, I'd like to try an atheist gatecloser at one point, a 100% pacifist gatecloser using pets/companions (probably a mist elven bard), a Chaos Knight, and an ultra (probably with GeWi). I think I'll postpone those until the next beta though.

[mewmew]

Grats.

Well, you were lucky to get a convenient altar for early pre-crowning, to get a very good artifact from it and then to get 3 wishes in a row, also orc beastfighter is a very strong combo AFAIK (beastfighter's skills/powers + good Str and To, and Find Weakness, and they don't need a lot of exp for level ups), so no wonder the game was easy.

Also while I didn't play ADoM long enough to estimate it difficulty, may be it could be higher, but I would say that it seems that you want the late game either to be as much RNG related as early game (which is not fun at all since RNG it's something which we don't have a control over) or to be a mandatory scum fest.
I played DCSS for some time, saw its development, and I would say that attempts to make a game harder may actually decrease the number of viable tactics and options and to make a game less fun overall, so I hope the Creator will be accurate with all the nerfs which he implements if any.
And scaling bosses is a some strange idea since it would make the game easier for weaker classes, I cannot even remember scaling bosses in other roguelikes except some bosses who can create a player's character copy.

[moozooh]

Thanks!

Well, you were lucky to get a convenient altar for early pre-crowning, to get a very good artifact from it

Actually, it wasn't really convenient, and neither was the one in my duelist ascent. That time I had to spend half a month gathering the required piety with a holy symbol and finished the game at around day 180. This time around I had a scroll of danger which made it much faster. Thankfully there are always several ways to reach your goal in ADOM.

Re: "good" artifact, that's part of the "problem": most artifacts are actually way fucking good. As in, pre-crowning itself is pretty overpowered, and can potentially make the game for you. In my experience, out of 3-4 (semi-)random artifacts you can get in early/mid-game this way, at least half of them are bound to be best-in-slot at least until very late game—and likely forever. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but with these great artifacts the game doesn't really compensate in any way, like it does with cursing/dooming/corrupting artifacts or True Strength.

and then to get 3 wishes in a row, also orc beastfighter is a very strong combo AFAIK (beastfighter's skills/powers + good Str and To, and Find Weakness, and they don't need a lot of exp for level ups), so no wonder the game was easy.

I expected it to be harder than the duelist, but it was actually easier thanks to Thunderstroke. I virtually never had to use missiles as the duelist, this time I never actually had to fight anything in melee, even though I also could.

I would say that it seems that you want the late game either to be as much RNG related as early game (which is not fun at all since RNG it's something which we don't have a control over) or to be a mandatory scum fest.

Neither. I actually want better scaling. In this game, once you get a massive boost—be it an artifact, a pair of 7LB, a heap of gold, or something to that extent—it just carries you through the game until you lose it somehow. Artifacts and eternium gear you just can't lose at all. Once I managed to get advantage of the game, all it took me to retain it was simply not being a complete idiot!

Thing is, there are challenging enemies in the game (ghost kings, emperor liches, werewolf kings, greater molochs, balors, greater titans, ancient wyrms, ancient karmic dragons, doppleganger kings, quickling queens, etc.), but they're very rare, and only dangerous under particular circumstances. There are several dangerous effects/spells (petrification, death ray, stun ray, blindness), but few if any enemies use them in any way at all. There are several challenging areas in the game, but they're all optional and/or easily skippable (Blue Dragon Caves, Small Cave, Dwarven Halls). There are several mechanics to make enemies harder (KPL, scaling), but they're wasted on inconsequential popcorn mobs and optional areas. This will partly be fixed in the next beta. I hope it'll be enough actually, but those random boss enemies in particular definitely need to be scaled.

And scaling bosses is a some strange idea since it would make the game easier for weaker classes, I cannot even remember scaling bosses in other roguelikes except some bosses who can create a player's character copy.

Making scaling one-way (i.e. not scaling them down from the current values) would solve that problem just fine whilst retaining the benefit.

P.S. If I were to make a top-3 of the most overpowered abilities in the game, I would name these, in this order:
1) altar-blessing potions of water;
2) live sacrifices;
3) slaying weapons/ammunition.

[sylph]

Congrats on your wins! True aim on a beastfighter sounds like heaven!

It would do you well to consider your character class and race combination to be your difficulty level selection for the game. Really, it's worth just calling certain classes 'easy mode' in your head when you're picking your character - that's how ADOM was (not) balanced! I actually fairly strongly object* to seeing a player asking for 'better scaling' when reporting playing duelists and orcish beastfighters! I've been playing exclusively thieves recently, I'd suggest you try something similar.

* More importantly - *MUCH* more importantly, having games 'scale' with the player is the single most irritating, disgustingly sloppy and misapplied game mechanic I've ever seen rear it's ugly head into my ilfe hobby (and I've been gaming for 30 years). I don't want enemies to scale with my level. I want to come back when I'm stronger to resume my quest. That's what adventure is all about. The elder scrolls games were all pretty much ruined for me by this 'scaling' mechanic, and I don't wish to see it in any form whatsoever in ADOM (unfortunately, we already have it, but not enough to be significant, thank goodness!)

If you have a problem with the difficulty of the game (especially with your top-15 scorelines), I'd suggest you play it with character class/race combinations that aren't so ridiculously powerful *before* you start taking drastic measures like equipment restriction. Trying to get a win with weak class/race combinations in under 80,000 turns has occupied my ADOM gaming nicely for the last few months!

[Ravenshire]

If you would like to test your skill try your hand at some of the challenge games or as sylph said try a harder race/class combo. GeWi is considered to be one of the easiest up there with both Orc Beastfighter and HeAr.

As for your crowning gifts you got very lucky, Ive had 4 characters get crowned with gauntlets of Eternal Peace try having those on a melee oriented character and tell me getting precrowned is worth it.
ive been considering a challenge game idea feel free free to give it a try the idea is to win the game as a bard using only cats as your pets and win the game using the trio thats available. also using these cats to kill the cat master thus becoming the new master of cats

[SirTheta]

1. The hardest part of the game is between levels ~6 to ~16. This is typically when the lack of proper resistance or PV is fatal. This part of the game is very largely governed by RNG with regards to intrinsic harvesting and increasing piety for free artifacts. If you manage to survive until clvl 16, get at least some of the crucial rare intrinsics (teleport control, stun resistance, paralyzation resistance—the rest are comparatively easy to obtain), and retrieve the two Pyramid artifacts, you have a very high chance at clearing the game. If you find an altar in a mid-danger zone or in a zone where you can use a scroll of danger, you have a very high chance of clearing the game. The first two precrownings are typically very easy to obtain, so you're pretty much guaranteed to have three gifted artifacts before level 20.

If you want to grind for precrownings, grind for precrownings Yes it can make the game easier, but it's not very fun (PC:5 is the only case in which I find it's worth it) and you of course get stuck with the black tome when the RNG decides to mess with you.

2. Not nearly enough monsters adjust to PC's power. Boss monsters absolutely should. Royalty monsters and unique monsters mostly should as well. So far it seems that every unique monster except Keriax, Nuurag-Vaarn, and ACW are just pinatas (although even ACW can die from a single blessed potion of cure corruption). This adjustment thing by itself isn't even as bad as it seems: I've meleed both greater molochs and doppelganger kings with my either character without fail.

Check back in when a dopple king crits you for 600 HP You are assuming your experience with extremely overpowered characters is representative of all of ADOM. While OP characters are very much fun, they may not be what you're looking for.

3. Not nearly enough challenging monsters in late game in general. This is, as I understand, to be fixed in the next beta, so I won't comment further on that point.

This I agree with (past TOEF), but as you say, we will see in p21.

4. There are too many best-in-slot items, and some of them are extremely easy to obtain. Those who go with two-handed weapons will use Axe of the Minotaur Emperor. At least one returning (and slaying) artifact missile is guaranteed by level 36. Fire and Water orbs are by far the best tool slot items for melee and mage classes, respectively. The artifact bracers and cloak are so much better than any non-artifact counterpart it's not even funny. There should be more options for such items to dilute the item pool and provide different benefits to consider.

AOTME is not that easy to obtain - I find the effort required to navigate maze is simply dreadful. Of course, by some (imo not very good) decisions, it has not been made less tedious, but rather such that the reward is so great that you live with the tedious and want to toss laptop out of window and beat head against wall until bloody. While I'd welcome some variety in bracer slot, etc. - looking at your artifact list - you got extremely lucky. One of Protector [on class that can use it], Preserver, and BoW is instant game winner once you get them. Two? Plus robes of resistance? C'mon now. You can click through some of my recent gamewinners - I haven't found BoW in a very, very long time, nor Preserver (though the latter more recently than BoW, certainly). They are by no means guaranteed and once you don't have them, you'll realize just how good they were and how much you miss them. OTOH, playing a character with both is very much OP and oodles of fun (oh DE Paladin...how I miss you so.).

5. It's too easy to min-max. Elemental resistances become near-useless in late game, since the PC would typically have one of each intrinsically, and two more counts on each from numerous artifacts and rare non-artifact items (RotHK and elemental gauntlets alone cover the needs for elemental resistances when combined with intrinsics, and both are guaranteed). Stuff like death rays, sleep, and petrification resistance becomes a non-issue in late game because only a couple enemies in the game ever use it, and even then it's easy to avoid by various means (and there's a guaranteed artifact... you get it). You don't need extreme combinations of prefixes and suffixes to deal motherloads of damage with one-handed weapons, either, and you're almost guaranteed to find a sword of sharpness or some weapon of penetration, which are typically good enough to last you through the entire game.

This has nothing to do with min-maxing. And I see no problem with this.

6. Speed is overrated. Energy cost is a lot more effective and has no downsides at all. Speed, on the other hand, enjoys diminishing returns after about 120-125, which, combined with Long Stride, already allow one to outrun roughly 98% of enemies, including most of the dangerous ones. Bringing one's speed to 120-125 can be very easily achieved by guaranteed or semi-guaranteed means, too.

Bringing one's speed to 120-125 is not easy on a class that does not get speed boost w/ levels / if you do not start with Ravens. Speed is not really overrated because it allows you to dodge spells, and no one thinks it's better than energy cost reduction anyway (so it by definition cannot be overrated ).

7. Not nearly enough monsters are protected from missiles like doppelgangers are. I don't think this needs to be elaborated for anyone who has ever used slaying ammunition or returning artifacts. Missiles like those essentially turn on the easy mode.

If you want more of a challenge, do not use them?

Your problem, as others have stated, is that you've been playing easy mode. You will forego many of these objections (and perhaps praise slaying ammo to the gods) if you play (1) a weaker RC or (2) don't grind for things or (3) don't get extremely lucky. A very odd list of complaints indeed.

[Mobius]

Want more difficult: Don't wield orbs. I somehow thought just putting them in the slot corrupted the player, so I never used them there. Is that enough of a challenge?

[moozooh]

Guys, guys! Since when is it a good idea to balance games using voluntary handicaps enforced by players themselves? Sounds much like not balancing at all.

Although I proposed the idea of playing an atheist character and whatnot, ideally I want to play firmly by the game's rules and use all the means at my disposal without consulting my conscience. In my case the means are, for the most part, so good they make heaps of tactical decisionmaking unnecessary; the only decision to make most of the time is fight-or-flight, and even that becomes unnecessary in late game where you can always fight.

I'm pretty sure I would still be able to get tons of artifacts, farm mosses and morgia, bless my potions of gain attributes, and read scrolls of corruption removal as any RC; the early game would still be governed by RNG but it would only be a matter of time before I got good enough rolls to get through. So, which RC would you recommend me try? It could be an interesting experiment to probe the current state of the game's balance. I would even play it on the public server just to demonstrate my progress and whatnot. Somehow I'm absolutely sure it would be a lot easier than playing an overpowered RC 100% atheist from start to finish.

[grobblewobble]

So, which RC would you recommend me try?

Mist elf thief.

The overpowered thing about the beastfighter was thunderstroke. Even more since you had Farslayer too, that's the most broken combo there is, currently. I think that a returning arrow / quarrel should take a turn to reload, instead of flying back into your bow / xbow instantly.

[mewmew]

I think that a returning arrow / quarrel should take a turn to reload, instead of flying back into your bow / xbow instantly.

Wouldn't it be nearly useless again then? May be a slightly higher energy cost or something.