First two wins (both melee-oriented gateclosers) and opinions on the difficulty

[grobblewobble]

I think it would still be pretty good that way, even if it takes an extra turn to reload after each shot. It's still acting like a stack of arrows with massive bonus to to-hit and damage, of virtually unlimited size and indestructible.

[SirTheta]

Guys, guys! Since when is it a good idea to balance games using voluntary handicaps enforced by players themselves? Sounds much like not balancing at all.

This is what makes ADOM a great game. If you want to use all the tricks at your disposal to win the game, that's fine and dandy, you can do so. If you want to have some fun, stop grinding, and have yourself a challenge, you can also do this.

Also, you will find the game much harder when you have neither Preserver nor BoW generated (or Thunderstroke for that matter). If you want an RC you'll die a lot with, play a Mist Elf Thief as grobble says.

(P.S. grobble - you should RFE that. It's an interesting idea.)

[Qui]

Also take note that this is a prerelease, where balance can be all over the place. Not long ago the artifact missiles were next to useless, now they are super-powerful. Eventually they'll end up somewhere inbetween surely.

[grobblewobble]

(P.S. grobble - you should RFE that. It's an interesting idea.)

Will do. Was Gut who came up with it.

[moozooh]

If you want an RC you'll die a lot with, play a Mist Elf Thief as grobble says.

^ Just for the record, I've accepted this challenge and already made a headway with this toon on Alucard's server; recording it as well. Went Candle so that I could get Herbalism from Guth'Alak and a Heir gift (which I didn't use much really). Currently have 3 gifted artifacts: Brannalbin's Cloak of Defense, True Aim, and the Staff of Creation. About to finish farming morgia, then doing the second Dwarftown quest. Actually managed to become a fallen champion already (lol), but other than cursing/dooming and the removal of champion bonuses I'm fine; at least I can already bless water again. Pyramid, Keethrax, Kranach, puppy quest all done, HiVi unlocked. The hardest part was taking Kranach on with PV 3 and pathetic Alertness/Dodge dice. Still haven't maxed out Dodge.

So far my outlook on the game's balance seems to be confirmed: upon passing the initial RNG-heavy phase, not being an idiot is enough. As soon as I'm done with this toon, I'm playing an atheist.

[SirTheta]

Yes, not being an idiot is enough at most points of the game.

That's great, maybe if you tried not grinding for multiple precrowns (btw you have insane luck with precrowns, which will have to run out eventually) and without choosing best thief starsign (since heir gift for thief is way OP), you would find the game much more challenging Although, on a mist elf thief, you will probably manage to anomalously die at some point

If you precrown twice every game, most of the time you're going to have a very easy time of it (since at least one of the artifacts will be useful for the early game most of the time). There's no getting around this. The game is as challenging as you make it, and even the most challenging can be overcome with supremely careful play [ahem, Soirana's zen monk]. This isn't a bad thing, but it also means if you min-max perfectly every time you will win every time you don't die to a stone block trap or lightning vortex next to stairs.

p.s. I personally play like an idiot a lot, esp. in early game but don't let that detract from my advice

[melphen]

First congrats.

Now, lets not get ahead of ourselves. The game needs to be balanced a bit, but you are going the wrong way. As long as I have known about ADOM, and RL games in general, I have known one undeniable truth. The game is not playing fair. It must be easy for those that have already beaten the game a ton of times to say it is easy, but from where I'm standing the urine flows constant and warm. Lets not go throwing out the possibility of new people starting to play the game because people that have been at it a while think it is easy for some reason...

This thread is very happy to point out the amount of personal information needed for a player to beat the game.You have to spoil yourself or spend years in pursuit of the information needed to know that your character has a chance as soon as it is rolled, but it takes a lot of knowledge to get through this game.

I'm not saying nothing should ever be added. What I am asking for is some hindsight. Look back at all the things you had to learn to win, add to it all these things you are asking to be added to it, think about the extra needed to learn all that and remember that someone new might start playing today and have to learn everything you have plus all the things you want added to have a chance.

Then remember how running into something Karmic in the dark feels. No matter how good you get at this, luck, pure dumb luck, is a factor.

That I know of no one gets paid to play this game. Lets not go adding another 1000 hours to the in game time needed to learn the game enough to have a chance.

[Setremedes]

Others have already mentioned that race/class/starsign combo is the easiest way to adjust difficulty in ADOM. Avoiding such brute-force tactics as precrowning (seriously, you precrowned getting alignment from a HOLY SYMBOL? Who DOES that?) will go a long way to make the game more interesting for you as well. It's worth pointing out that even playing orc beastfighters and drakeling duelists, it took you 14 years of on-and-off playing to beat ADOM for the first time. That's a hard game in my books.

I just got my first prerelease win on a candle drakeling monk with basically no trouble, but candle drakeling monk is an absurdly powerful combination, and I was lucky on top of it, much like you were with artifact finds - I got zero false levels in the minotaur maze, for example. Now I'm on a candle human assassin and still having a relatively easy time - assassins are harder than monks, but candle makes the game so much easier on its own, and my item drops have been insane - I got a (+6,2d3+6) bloody dagger in the first room of the SMC, perion's plate mail in a gnoll vault on UD:3, and since then, two pairs of 7LB, two phase daggers, a sword of sharpness, an ada broadsword of penetration...ridiculous luck with zero scumming, and I'm still pre-ToEF. Of course, I had to deal with two gorgons in Rehetep's room without petrification resistance, and the first floor of the ToEF has a berserker emperor tension room between me and the stairs, so the game is still getting some of its own back.

If you want to ramp up the difficulty a bit while sticking with your melee preferences, try non-candle assassins, rangers, and fighters, don't precrown, and make minimal use of herbs. If you want to ramp it up a lot, move on to weaponsmiths, farmers, thieves, and merchants, with the same restrictions. If you want a real challenge, try Brimstone Man.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

* More importantly - *MUCH* more importantly, having games 'scale' with the player is the single most irritating, disgustingly sloppy and misapplied game mechanic I've ever seen rear it's ugly head into my ilfe hobby (and I've been gaming for 30 years). I don't want enemies to scale with my level. I want to come back when I'm stronger to resume my quest. That's what adventure is all about. The elder scrolls games were all pretty much ruined for me by this 'scaling' mechanic, and I don't wish to see it in any form whatsoever in ADOM (unfortunately, we already have it, but not enough to be significant, thank goodness!)

+1. I have also been gaming for like 25 years, played countless RPG's, and ADOM is the only one I have seen where level scaling doesn't suck (after the uberjackal fix)... but that's because it's applied in a very slight and subtle way.

More level scaling would ruin the game, as it ruined several sagas including Elder Scrolls. Also see the current version of ADOM II.

[GordonOverkill]

I think so, too. Especially in Oblivion the scaling goes on my nerves so much that I didn't finish the game untill this very day.