Let's talk mino maze

[SirTheta]

The same could be said about mino maze. I feel like SirTheta always discarded the maze because it wasn't worth the effort.
He didn't complain back then but now that the prizes justify the effort, he suddenly realized it's annoying as fuck and tedious and boring and what not and wants it changed.
Sorry buddy, that's not the way it works.
Few people grinded the maze in 1.1.1 and didn't much complain.
For the most part, everybody knew it was just a point of honor and bragging ("I've done the maze with an orcish merchant dual wielding logs, wow") rather than to get some game-changing items, which simply were not there.
Suddenly the rewards were upped and some people don't like it simply because they don't want to grind through it and get the prize while other players don't have any such qualms.
Just live with that, that's how the maze was conceived, that's how it should remain.

I don't quite have time atm to respond to all new posts in this thread, but I do want to dispel this point [actually this turned into longer post about various things, too]. You're absolutely wrong - I did the maze twice in 1.1.1 [even in 1.1.1 the corpse was quite good as was the axe]. For example, you can view my badass 1.1.1 true berserking, AOTME-wielding Gray Elf Priest here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ePr_sunshy.flg. That character was simply superb, but I spent over an hour dicking around in the maze before giving up and just using the top trap trick. I probably would've done it more after that, but I then focused on poorly done speedruns for the remainder of my 1.1.1 times. I also did the maze in p7, before the rewards were adjusted, on an MeBf that badly needed toughness, again using top trap trick/magic map. [p.s. RNG really set me up because I got super lucky on my first run (w/o magic map) and did maze in like 10 mins without encountering any false levels. That is not how maze goes 95% of the time as I've later found out]

I also did complain back then - I commented on the tediousness of the Maze in grobble's RFE that got the rewards changed, and this post is partially a restatement of what I and others said there (you can view it at http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1507). I've always maintained that the fake levels are the #1 problem with the maze and they've always been central to my complaints here and in IRC. I am definitely not the only one who has complained about this - it's actually relatively common.

I've also (successfully) done the maze 3 times after the change to rewards (once in p17, twice in p20), out of 7 winners [duelist and beastfighter were minor/serious attempts at speedrun, weaponsmith and assassin gave up (if I'm recalling correctly and according to my kill list) because I hate the place so much].

So, I think I have very good view of how rewards worked (for example, how good the cow axe was in 1.1.1 and how good it would be in 1.2.0 at 3d20+16 with all the changes to 2H weapons, +Crit, backstabbing, etc.), work, and what should be changed to make the maze less tedious (having tried various strategies: top track trip [i.e. no fake levels], magic mapping, brute force). The substance of the change is debatable - for example, Soirana's portal idea is kind of cool - but, imo, there's no way the maze is a good location if fake levels are left as they are [btw, fake levels are not like dead ends, which already exist in maze, or even like illusionary walls, which are frustrating sure, but kind of cool! I've laid out why I think fake levels are a bad design in previous post]. I started this thread mostly to just vent about how wrong I think the change was (I like complaining ) and to let people suggest things "off the record".*

As an addendum: due to the change in potentials, I feel that spellcasters and elf classes (which are the majority of spellcasters, from what I see) benefit just as much (and sometimes more) than melee classes because the +10 To is such a huge change for them. Once you have that much HP, the game becomes a lot easier because you can slip up *a lot* and still not die.

*not really off the record since TB reads many posts and I'm sure he'll see this eventually, but w/e, I feel like there is more free-form discussion when it is not official RFE.

[Superteeth]

I don't really think this is the case. The whole point of having prereleases is so that TB can get community feedback on how to make the game better (as well as getting a goodly amount of beta-testing done for it). There have been several issues where TB has had to revisit an implementation after it became clear from testing that the change didn't work out. For example, the change preventing summoners from dropping loot has been reversed; Thrundarr's first quest and the Thieves' Guild quest have been revisited two or three times now. Simply because the change has been made does not mean that it cannot be unmade if there is a compelling reason to do so.

I think that the minotaur maze is a special case because he has mentioned that he did not like the idea of making an optional quest that is clearly a challenge for good reason easier. Most of the things that are changed back and forth are not of that nature. This is why he boosted the rewards rather than making the maze easier. Now people are suggesting that the rewards are too powerful. You can either switch it back to the way it was, or you can nerf the rewards. Nerfing the rewards (a subjective definition, of course) is being suggested to go along with a nerfing of the maze in general, and Biskup has already said he doesn't like making optional quests easier. I'm sure he will consider something to change, but I would hope he doesn't change his mind and make the maze less maze-like.

[Soirana]

Most of the things that are changed back and forth are not of that nature.

Can I get list of these things?

Dwarven quests and thieve guild are totally optional sidequests which were tinekered multiple times. So these are okay and maze is not? Strange....

[Blasphemous]

I like complaining too
I can endlessly do that regarding teleportitis and lack of means to prevent item destruction in BDC, but oh well, that's the way it is.
I rarely did the maze in 1.1.1, the rewards were just not what I'd have expected from such a place, though I still considered it a nice challenge and simply did this if I had enough surplus resources like means of healing, teleportation and magic mapping.
This has always been the idea behind optionality - you do it if you deem it plausible, given your resources and how your char manages to overcome various equally dangerous parts of the game.
However, even now, I don't feel like it's such a bad place - it sure is annoying but (for me) not nearly as annoying as teleportitis or getting my items destroyed by blue dragons.
Maybe it's because you can somewhat control how nasty the maze is by excessive preparations and you can't really do that in BDC or with intrinsic teleportitis.
I suppose it's just a matter of personal approach - despite me being against any further changes done to the maze, beside ones already implemented, I can relate to you because I understand what it means to have annoying stuff in the game you like playing so much.

EDIT:

Dwarven quests and thieve guild are totally optional sidequests which were tinekered multiple times. So these are okay and maze is not? Strange....

I don't ever bother with thieves' quests. Ever. I have literally played two characters that learned pick pockets from Yergius and that's it. The game plays almost exactly the same if you completely skip that part.
As for dwarven quests - they are optional indeed but also doable on low PC levels, without much preparation, without any level limits and with rewards that are more utilitarian rather than combat-oriented in mino maze (except the lead-filled mace but frankly it's cumbersome to use and I typically do dwarven quests to get potions of extra healing, wands, identification of items and blankets).
None of this can be said about the maze, that's why even though both are optional, they are not subject to the same mechanics.

[Superteeth]

Can I get list of these things?

Dwarven quests and thieve guild are totally optional sidequests which were tinekered multiple times. So these are okay and maze is not? Strange....

These quests are optional, but are not particularly challenging. The dwarven quests, as Blasphemous stated, give many utilitarian items that help the survival of low-level PCs. The items are invaluable for newbies, and even for experience players who get into a bind.

The minotaur maze is meant to be a challenge, and the rewards reflect this. It is not the place for low-level PCs or for people who don't like doing difficult things for good rewards. None of the things you get in the maze are as useful for progressing through the point in the game which one is at to enter the maze as compared to the dwarven quest rewards. Chances are that the ToEF has already been done before entering the maze, so the hardest part of the game is over. This is what I mean by it being optional, and a challenge. A challenge that should not be made easier.

[Soirana]

The only challenge in maze is tedium. From what I get is not meant not to be game of tedium. If there were dangerous ord of minotaurs to plow through I would agree but there is not.

As dwarven quests not being combat orientated - good artifact weapon, fireball wand, full heals to support combat and for some classes nearly full set of mithril armor. Not combat orientated definitely.

[Superteeth]

But the dwarven quests and their rewards are found in the early-game, and as such they help low-level PCs, regardless of whether the items are combat-oriented or not. Most players always do the dwarven quests, barring a ridiculously rare first quest monster. I do, however, agree that the maze should have more powerful minotaurs, and that there should be more monsters in general. It is mostly walking as is. However, I don't see a problem with the main challenge being tedium. A game should not have it's main challenge as being one of tedium, but it is fitting for a maze. Mazes are tedious, and this point is made in the minotaur maze.

[Qui]

I think the Maze was fine in 1.1.1. You wanted the axe and had means to do it, you did it. Otherwise not. Unless you wanted to do it as a challenge/for fun/because you're a completionist/whatever. And that's how "optional content" should be, imho. Right now, the rewards are way overdone. Improved axe, PoGA, PoCC, artifact... everyone wants that. And some players might feel like they have to do it, or they'll be disadvantaged.

What's more, I think that right now the Maze has the best guaranteed rewards out of any place in the game. Only lucky greater vaults or Casino might be better. And it's a mid-game place, not a late-game one, at least so indicate level restrictions.

[Soirana]

Most players always do the dwarven quests, barring a ridiculously rare first quest monster.

The question is why they do so and answer is because effort/reward ratio is very good.

Currently maze's effort/reward is at least decent too not sure if it at point there players start think of it as must do, but likely close.

I do not get what level thing should mean. In Adom after ToEF+Casino restock part is already rather boring so I would say mid too late game needs more fixing than early parts in which RNG provides enough entertainment.

[GordonOverkill]

The only challenge in maze is tedium. From what I get is not meant not to be game of tedium. If there were dangerous ord of minotaurs to plow through I would agree but there is not.

Soirana-standard-mistake: The only challange for you is tedium. I know of many players (including myself) who got into many different dangerous situations withing the maze because of hunger,traps, the emperor and his minons...

All in all I like the maze in it's current state, because it feels very "mazy". It can sometimes get so tedious that you are close to losing your mind in there... in my eyes that's what mazes are supposed to do. 90% of all video game mazes kinda suck because they lack this characteristic. If you are not in the mood for the maze-experience, just don't do it. Though I wouldn't bother nerfing the rewards a little.

About those guardian corpses not being worth eating: Dudes, are you totally crazy? Why the hell should any but the most mental maniac even consider eating the epitomes of chaos itself? And why the bloody hell should it give you a serious advantage to eat those beasts??? If there's anything in the world that you wouldn't want for lunch, at least in my eyes it's the orb guardians.