Cost of Crowning too high?

[Blasphemous]

I always go for at least one precrown. My current mindcrafter got bracers of war. Can't complain at all

[BenMathiesen]

I don't think a change is needed. Getting one precrown is a nice bonus and not too difficult if conditions are right, but I never try too hard to get one because the gift is totally random. I've gotten Vanquisher with a Str 8 wizard. I've gotten Protector with a beastfighter. You have a good chance of landing a decent weapon, but about half of the artifact weapons are going to be supplanted by mid game when I find an X of devastation or a sword of sharpness.

Should it be easier or more difficult? I don't think so. The difficulty of a precrown depends a lot on your alignment too. If you're C or L it's easier to get a precrown in the early game because you don't risk hitting C- or L+ in the process, and because you can sacrifice most monsters. If you're N it is a lot more tedious--but N characters have lots of other advantages, so more difficult precrowning is a minor but appropriate tradeoff.

[Tyrnyx]

I think people might be biased depending on just how many times they've gotten good things vs. crap.

I don't think the system as a whole requires a change. Some people are just going to grind the hell out of the game because they are powergamers. These people also make the argument that the maze is mandatory because the rewards are bitchin' and doing everything possible to save khelly is justifiable, etc. They're munchkins. (which isn't a bad thing necessarily - some people like the powergame, some like to roleplay).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchki...playing_games)

I do agree that such things are a noobie/guidebook trap. The first time I won I wished for the Emperor Moloch, had the twin daggers, and most likely precrowned (don't really remember). Such things are so incredibly unnecessary that I can't believe that I did them in hindsight. I was a munchkin. Such feelings come with experience. I think it bogs down the game now... but I didn't previously.

Now, I'm not a munchkin or a roleplayer. I'm just lazy.

I wouldn't mind a change for no precrowns and more surges of power. Why: because I think it's more fun (and I'm lazy).

[SirTheta]

I don't think the system as a whole requires a change. Some people are just going to grind the hell out of the game because they are powergamers. These people also make the argument that the maze is mandatory because the rewards are bitchin' and doing everything possible to save khelly is justifiable, etc. They're munchkins. (which isn't a bad thing necessarily - some people like the powergame, some like to roleplay).

Hey now - one of these things does not belong with the other two, and has gotten worse with the further restrictions to potentials in further prereleases.

[Tyrnyx]

Hey now - one of these things does not belong with the other two, and has gotten worse with the further restrictions to potentials in further prereleases.

I don't know exactly how it plays out in pre-23 as I only played one game in that and it was an interesting/different one (GE C- only CK). However, in Pre-20, I have never felt that I needed to do any of those things.

Edit: Indeed of the past 8 wins (pre-20 or later), I've pre-crowned maybe once, done the maze twice (mostly to say that I could-pretty sure I didn't even eat the corpse the first time), and maybe saved Khelly once or twice.

[shockeroo]

I'm actually warmer to the idea of removing pre-crowns than I am leaving them alone. I'm still in favour of piety gains being better though. It *always* makes sense to get to Very Close for Luck + Fate Smiles, and from then it always strikes me as silly not to carry on get the artifact. Getting an artifact is splashy and *fun*, especially for new players; picking it up and finding out what it is is exciting, and sometimes it completely changes the game.

The current process to sac for one is, however, miserible. There is absolutely nothing fun about sacrificing monsters for an hour.

I also think it's really weird that your race's favoured sacrifice just isn't worth sacrificing, that monsters/corpses are always so much better. That at the very least should be changed IMO.

[biomateria]

Racial sacrificing is pretty weak, I'll give you that.

I'm in favor of no change. I only precrown if it's easy, e.g. altar on a dangerous level. It usually doesn't take that long. I am a fan of increasing the frequency of surges of power and the like, though. I've never seen one before.

[SirTheta]

+Luck is attained at 3000 piety, which is very easy to get from a few sacrifices. It's not that great though - questionably worth the effort.

Certainly, +Fate is not worth the effort in the early game - the chances it saves you are extremely questionable. Moreover "carry on to get the artifact" requires exactly again the amount of work you put in to get to +Fate, which is not insignificant.

The problem with racial gifts is that it's based on the sell value of the item - and then you get a multiplicative factor. So it's 0.33*sell value base*racial multiplier and it barely gets you anything.

[daft inquisitor]

"Fate Smiles" has saved me from an untimely death more than I would like to admit. Far too many times have I been blasted with a crit to end up with exactly 1 life left, and enough piety to Pray my way to safety.

I find it *MANDATORY* to get high amounts of piety early in the game, because I don't make it very far without it. The RNG is too fickle. I'll have enemies that hit me for five or six points of damage randomly double-hit me with crits and drop me from half-health to nothing. It's really not cool.

That being said, I still have yet to EVER get a precrowning/crowning in game, though I have gotten really close in Pre-20. And I have also yet to beat the game, or even get too close to that either.

I understand how to play the game. I know what enemies to run away from, I know when situations are bad, but somehow I still keep getting that ONE unlucky hit that finishes me when it shouldn't. It sucks, and frankly, if I could actually GET a pre-crown, I'm sure I would benefit from it a lot.

If you're running around with barely any artifacts and no real power to speak of, even one artifact can completely change everything for you. Situationally, of course, but that's always a possibility.

[SirTheta]

I find it *MANDATORY* to get high amounts of piety early in the game, because I don't make it very far without it. The RNG is too fickle. I'll have enemies that hit me for five or six points of damage randomly double-hit me with crits and drop me from half-health to nothing. It's really not cool.

...

I understand how to play the game. I know what enemies to run away from, I know when situations are bad, but somehow I still keep getting that ONE unlucky hit that finishes me when it shouldn't. It sucks, and frankly, if I could actually GET a pre-crown, I'm sure I would benefit from it a lot.

I think you'd benefit a lot more from (a) playing a stronger RC (no idea what you are playing) and (b) gaining more experience so you truly know when to run away, heal up, advance in dungeon levels, etc. [I don't think you have the clearest understanding of it now if random criticals are taking you to 0 HP and you feel +Fate is mandatory]. Learning more of the game mechanics is going to be far more beneficial then getting a precrown and blasting through things only to be set back to square one when you advance to anything moderately challenging.