Cost of Crowning too high?

[daft inquisitor]

I've been playing this game since 1.1.1. I have plenty of experience with the game. I understand how things work, I play strong class/race combinations, and I take a lot of precautions. But it's still not enough, because RNG is a bitch in this game. A cold, relentless bitch. And if I didn't have so much piety and Lucky intrinsics, I would have died a hundred times more on these characters. I have walked out of more situations by the skin of my teeth than should rightly be done.

EDIT: I make it to the Lich Graveyard fairly easily on a lot of characters, but rarely make it too far past there. A lot of my journeys don't end directly there, but the stat drains hurt me enough that I die too easily elsewhere. So I make it far enough to understand bad situations and get out of them. But that doesn't stop big bad things from screwing me up in the long-run.

[SirTheta]

I've been playing this game since 1.1.1. I have plenty of experience with the game. I understand how things work, I play strong class/race combinations, and I take a lot of precautions. But it's still not enough, because RNG is a bitch in this game. A cold, relentless bitch. And if I didn't have so much piety and Lucky intrinsics, I would have died a hundred times more on these characters. I have walked out of more situations by the skin of my teeth than should rightly be done.

EDIT: I make it to the Graveyard fairly easily on a lot of characters, but rarely make it too far past there. A lot of my journeys don't end directly there, but the stat drains hurt me enough that I die too easily elsewhere. So I make it far enough to understand bad situations and get out of them. But that doesn't stop big bad things from screwing me up in the long-run.

Well - I don't think you do have enough experience. Like, clearly the RNG isn't killing everyone since people win games all the time (even me, a notoriously careless and suboptimal player). And most of my games don't involve an early +Luck/+Fate/+Artifact. I mean, JellySlayer has won the game doomed multiple times, so clearly with careful play and a lot of experience you don't need +Fate to start.

For example, this experience you claim results in you getting stat-drained in the Dwarven GY a lot. I rarely lose any stat points in the GY - and if I do, it's only a couple. I also take the GY around level 12 nowadays, for a level boost to get into the Pyramid at 13, which is [hopefully!] a bit earlier than you are taking on the GY. What are we doing differently? Well, I know how much PV I need to take zero to very few stat drains. You can replace this experience with Ayla's Holy Scarf, but what about the next game when you don't get +10 PV for free?

edit: oh - you say Lich GY, so the CoC one. That seems like even less of a problem - think about how you could carefully circumvent all the monsters. Other comments apply.

[JellySlayer]

"Fate Smiles" has saved me from an untimely death more than I would like to admit. Far too many times have I been blasted with a crit to end up with exactly 1 life left, and enough piety to Pray my way to safety.

This effect just depends on luck, IIRC. Any PC can be saved in this manner, though Fate Smiles makes it more probable.

[shockeroo]

I really don't like the attitude 'you're not good enough at ADOM, you shouldn't be encouraged to (pre)crown' - work harder at your game instead.'

There is an strong element of personal preference and fun in ADOM as well as optimising for streamlined high-skilled wins. So what if you can win doomed? It doesn't make YOUR game less enjoyable if other players have to grind less to get an effect that they enjoy.

[SirTheta]

I really don't like the attitude 'you're not good enough at ADOM, you shouldn't be encouraged to (pre)crown' - work harder at your game instead.'

Why? Am I wrong that people might enjoy winning because they have experience? Perhaps they might even enjoy it more than dying with a precrown because they've relied on a game option that makes them overpowered for the early game, but likely will not save them from death in the mid-game if they don't have enough skill? (Skill which you build up in the early game).

There is an strong element of personal preference and fun in ADOM as well as optimising for streamlined high-skilled wins. So what if you can win doomed? It doesn't make YOUR game less enjoyable if other players have to grind less to get an effect that they enjoy.

So, I brought up JellySlayer as an example of someone with an obvious amount of incredible experience and skill. It has nothing to do with precrowning or not, only that the RNG is not the factor in daft's death - his lack of more advanced experience/knowledge/skill is. (sidenote: I can't win doomed. again, I'm a careless and impulsive player.)

However, I've taken issue with this train of thought and will take issue with it again here - specifically the "people enjoy the results". Well, that's a load of honky and it's a poor excuse to implement anything. I "enjoy" having 25 Toughness and Wi because it makes the game a lot easier - so we should never rebalance stats/potential thereof. I "enjoy" being able to disable all the bosses with the same commonly available disabler - so we should never introduce resistances. I "enjoy" gathering 200 stoma for a quick precrown + crown (or 100 for a quick crown), so we should never get rid of stoma sacrifice.

I enjoyed a lot of things that were removed from 1.1.1, but I can also see how the make the game better. Making precrowns easier to get does not make the game better - it furthers the classic newb trap.

[paivi]

While I wholeheartedly agree that Adom should be a fun and rewarding game to play, I don't see why pre-crowning should be made any easier. It's certainly tedious, but it's an optional part of the game. I've played for years and rarely bothered with it. None of my winners have been pre-crowned.

Recently I found an altar in PC and decided to see what the fuss about precrowning was about. Got the Black Tome of Alsophocus. \o/

[gosos]

i try to crown early and i find it tedious. spawn rates tend to be too low to keep generating monsters. i have to run between levels and draw the mobs back. might be interesting if levels with altars have higher spawn rates? yeah its more dangerous. but still.

[Jeremiah]

There is nothing wrong with pre-crowing. All you need for the first one is a stack of food and an altar of any alignment and that is it. I don't even bother to change a neutral altar anymore I just go with it, killing the neutral mobs instead of sacing them. One free artifact at the start of the game is more than enough.

If you take away the challenge of the game, than it is not going be as enduring to play. I noticed they buffed some of the heir gifts and that silly 3 level cave was added. Some items have had their drop rate increased and maybe it is just me, but I don't seem to have to worry about food any more. I get the impression corpse drop rate has been increased. These statues were put in but I am not finding any with negative effects, they should have more negative effects. Yes, they removed the exploits, but if you didn't use them before than the game seems to be getting easier. Let's keep it a challenging game that you have to work at please. That is the best part about ADOM.

[biomateria]

@Jeremiah - Are you playing the prereleases? Food saccing has been nerfed AFAIK. Also, the only statues I've run into were negative for me. I've been confused, had my gold stolen, and other such things. I don't remember any positive ones yet. The silly 3 level cave you are talking about is the tutorial cave. Going there puts a huge penalty on your score, but as you've probably noticed gives some strong starting items. Most experienced players skip it as far as I can tell.

[Drifted]

@Jeremiah - Are you playing the prereleases? Food saccing has been nerfed AFAIK. Also, the only statues I've run into were negative for me. I've been confused, had my gold stolen, and other such things. I don't remember any positive ones yet. The silly 3 level cave you are talking about is the tutorial cave. Going there puts a huge penalty on your score, but as you've probably noticed gives some strong starting items. Most experienced players skip it as far as I can tell.

I would guess he meant having enough food with you to survive live sac race that can take a while. Because you rarely find corpses for food when saccing everything that moves (if C/L altar).

I generally go for precrown if I find L/C altar in convenient place. Meaning it's around middle of the dungeon with no long hallways and not in corner. And if I have enough food. For me it doesn't take that long. Around 10-15 minutes if it's in optimal place. I used to get precrown everytime I saw an altar but it really takes long time if altar is in some annoying spot. On topic I wouldn't really mid pre/postcrowning getting removed if surges of power were a bit more common (just marginally).

If I scrutinize my playstyle in ADOM and in other RPGs I tend to fall towards powergaming. I would like to be more roleplayer but I just like to play like demigod blasting my way to victory. Short said that tends to fail a lot in ADOM as my only finished game (not accepting it as win) was scummed orc barbarian from a year or two back. But I will get my legal win eventually!