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Thread: overpowered traps?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    I never go with druid route for my mist elves. Since they are casters and have easy access to companions due to Necromancy, once you find a cure book Healer is a source of endless supply of blessed potions of extra healing - and those 1-3 permanent hp for each one are extremely useful for them, completely negating the danger of all the traps. Also, it is a good start for the Archmage route.
    I usually almost never do druid quest either. One more reason is that I don't want to create extra artifact that early in game, in case I run into altar in Puppy cave cavernous level or nearby and want to do pre-crowning.

  2. #22
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    It's an option to create a companion with the white Necromancy, right? Then let it check for non-door traps, that should solve normal traps for any mist elf with sufficient mana score.
    The door traps can be avoided pretty fine as well if you have the detect traps skill. Or dig around closed doors you just have to get past.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr3ybird View Post
    Get them past approx level 10, and they tank like nothing else with mist shield or w/e it's called. How is this not newbie friendly? Problem is *very* early game, < 10. You shouldn't have to pick a race for how they do in < 1/10 of the game.
    1) JellySlayer is right - it's the early game (broadly) and the very early game (specifically) that IS hard for newbies - when they aren't playing mist elves. Toss in a mist elve's HP/trap/etc. problems and it's a huge headache for a newbie to get a mist elf to level 10. Of course, newbies will also find things past the early game challenging, as well, which leads to...

    2) I don't know what your qualifications are (i.e. whether you've won / progressed to D:50 / progressed to TOEF / etc. on a mist elf), but you're absolutely wrong about them "tank[ing] like nothing else" past level 10. Certainly newbies will have plenty of problems throughout the game on a mist elf. For example, consider what I think is the lone mist elf death for which I generated a flg. My HP simply did not allow me to survive if the ACW hit me 2x in a row w/ an energy bolt through my (somewhat abysmal due to die rolls) Alertness, which happened here. Yet even one energy bolt presented significant problems due to my low HP - I was forced to heal somewhere on the interval [every turn, every other turn], during which time the ACW was doing whatever it wanted. Remember that this is just one fight - consider the numerous other enemies throughout the game that have a primary/secondary non-physical attack. And, remember, this is just a problem I had as a fairly experienced player on a mist elf (with a mist elf beastfighter win [from before they got +1 HP / level] already under my belt) - the situations that test newbies are far more numerous. There is no race I would place below mist elf on a "newbie-friendly ranking" of races.

    3) Unrelated to the above quote, while I personally refuse to use the black torc for dumb reasons, JellySlayer is definitely right about how its advantages outweigh its disadvantages for mist elves (and as he will gladly tell you - most RCs).
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta View Post
    2) I don't know what your qualifications are (i.e. whether you've won / progressed to D:50 / progressed to TOEF / etc. on a mist elf), but you're absolutely wrong about them "tank[ing] like nothing else" past level 10. Certainly newbies will have plenty of problems throughout the game on a mist elf. For example, consider what I think is the lone mist elf death for which I generated a flg. My HP simply did not allow me to survive if the ACW hit me 2x in a row w/ an energy bolt through my (somewhat abysmal due to die rolls) Alertness, which happened here. Yet even one energy bolt presented significant problems due to my low HP - I was forced to heal somewhere on the interval [every turn, every other turn], during which time the ACW was doing whatever it wanted. Remember that this is just one fight - consider the numerous other enemies throughout the game that have a primary/secondary non-physical attack. And, remember, this is just a problem I had as a fairly experienced player on a mist elf (with a mist elf beastfighter win [from before they got +1 HP / level] already under my belt) - the situations that test newbies are far more numerous. There is no race I would place below mist elf on a "newbie-friendly ranking" of races.
    ACW is just one fight and difficult for mist elves solely because of magical attacks. Not sure how you are helping your case with being strained,satiated and not using at least a couple of demon slaying arrows in your backpack. Tanking isn't just mindlessly poking everything with a penetrating weapon.

    Mist elves can easily wreck Darkforge with a good weapon and a little bit of spense without any fear of golem melee attacks which is a huge advantage as it will likely give access to better weapons/armor. From my experience (not that I play mist elves much due to annoying iron damage and the penultimate early game trap fatal rate) they hold much better in the mid-game and late-game against physical monsters which are like 95% of all monsters in ADOM. I wouldn't say that every 10+ level mist elf can destroy everything (depends on class mostly) but they shine quite a lot.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_ View Post
    ACW is just one fight and difficult for mist elves solely because of magical attacks. Not sure how you are helping your case with being strained,satiated and not using at least a couple of demon slaying arrows in your backpack. Tanking isn't just mindlessly poking everything with a penetrating weapon.
    This is far from true - his melee attacks are also numerous and devastating despite the half-damage. To be honest, I don't remember everything about that death at this point - I'm sure it was played suboptimally (as I'm wont to do) - but I'm pretty sure I tried a few things in my pack, incl. wands and bows & arrows, which weren't helpful with my abysmal Bows skill. It's "one fight", but it's going to be a game-ending fight for any newbies on a mist elf 90% of the time; plus, it was simply meant as an illustrative example of the larger problems you face against monsters w/ ranged attacks or high-damage melee attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_ View Post
    Mist elves can easily wreck Darkforge with a good weapon and a little bit of spense without any fear of golem melee attacks which is a huge advantage as it will likely give access to better weapons/armor. From my experience (not that I play mist elves much due to annoying iron damage and the penultimate early game trap fatal rate) they hold much better in the mid-game and late-game against physical monsters which are like 95% of all monsters in ADOM. I wouldn't say that every 10+ level mist elf can destroy everything (depends on class mostly) but they shine quite a lot.
    I've done DFG a tad early on all my ME, but it's far from true that's it's likely to give you a huge advantage - if you have a weapon you can take steel golems with (i.e. capable of dealing 40+ damage consistently), you're unlikely to find a big improvement in DFG, ime. Plus, DFG is not a great idea before you've gotten >80 HP, which can take a hell of a long time on a ME. Of course, the traps there are an actual worry, too, due to their high DL and unavoidable nature. Either way, I don't see the DFG wrecking capacity as a big advantage to ME.

    Perhaps it's true that 95% of the monsters in ADOM are physical-damage-based (I truly don't know - it sounds right). That kind of analysis is intrinsically flawed, however, because many physical monsters simply aren't dangerous. In my experience (due to their low HP) the mid-/late-game physical-damage-based monsters that are truly dangerous (your high-level mimics, your [greater] molochs, your diamond golems, your ogre emperors, etc.) are just as dangerous to a ME as a regular race; indeed, I would say more dangerous to ME than the non-elf/human/troll races. Then you have the added (relative) weakness to magic/elemental stuff/blah and it's no good.

    Sure, mist elves do shine a lot. They're rather unique, they require a lot more care than typical, and they're probably my favorite race to play. They're still the least newbie-friendly (by any interpretation of the phrase) race in ADOM. Newbies should steer clear of them and come back when they can really enjoy them.
    gate closers: GeWi GnMo(unarmed) DeAs/Pa/Mi(staves)/Ra GePr DrBb HrMo | p7: MeBf | p17: GnPr | p20: DrDu GnAs DeCk MeWp OrBf GnTh MeHe | R57: MeDu | R101: DrAs (26,674 turns) GnDu (26,748) DrAs (18,533)
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    currently speedrunning DrAs.

  6. #26
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    Sure, I wasn't saying they are newbie-friendly. Seems my experience is the same as greybird (and that is why I decided to chime in) -- I found them much easier to melee and heal up than other chars. Slap a regeneration source or couple on them and they are beastly (well, melee classes at least).
    I like my women like my ADOM loot - hunted as treasure and in extra quantity.

  7. #27
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    I think JellySlayer is right about the "mist elf experience". They are exciting to play because of the low HP and I really like this feature.

    Generally talking about traps, from my experience the chance to fall into an already discovered pit trap is probably too high. Must be something like 50% from what I remember.
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  8. #28
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    ok i finally won with a mist elf!!!! took a mist elf barbarian...got lucky with \ pool sipping intially to get 'lucky' intrinsic and -pois at lvl 3 on ud1 also got a wish from pool sipping from darkforge and wished for potions of potential To and got my mist elf to 26 To with morgia. got excellent corruptions that didnt abuse To and St
    mist elves are beasts vs melle units and i crushed ACW and steel golems early game.
    it was smooth sailing except for 2 instances.
    i reached watertemple after doing toef equipped the crown of science to push my Le to 35 -40 and read the spellbook of identify obtained from kelly with good literacy and concentration when......i got confused. also the crown is impure metal so im taking constant damage and my hp is 15. cant drink potions of extra healing...cant remove the crown cause it is cursed and i cant dip it in holy water cause i am confused...i had to use 2 prayers while doomed and 10 blessed pepper petals before my confusion wore off...
    2ndly i generated a mimic shop in the toef and was using the walk command in berserk mode wielding a grod, and with rage corruption so i had 15 dv and walked straight into a master mimic.....luckily i was invis from wearing a cloak of invis and he spent his energy points trying to find me!!
    other than these 2 instances nothing phased me early and mid game.
    it is worth saying that this was my approx 15th attempt on mist elvs and 14 failed so i am not very proud of my achievement but i think the next time i win with this race will be pretty soon i think cause i learnt so much!!
    and yeah.....traps are overpowered for mist elves!!

  9. #29
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    The problem of traps in most roguelikes I know is that they do the same damage at level 1 and at level 50. The stone block that kills your character at level 1 will be laughable at level 50. At most, traps become annoying in the long run (corruption, inventory damage...). An easy fix would be to adapt trap power to the danger rating of the level your character is on. For example, early on, a fire trap would hit as a fire bolt cast from a hole, as later in the game it would result in a huge fire ball incinerating everything in the vicinity.
    You feel excited. You die.

  10. #30
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    Trap damage in ADOM does actually scale with danger level somewhat, though there may be an upper limit, I don't recall. But I remember in some of our forum challenge games there were extensive discussions about whether a character with 24 HP could safely open an exploding rune door on I:12 or whatever.

    At high levels, the only trap that seems to do really noticeable damage (aside from ceiling traps destroying lots of items) is pit traps, which I've definitely see do 100+ damage in the Mana Temple.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

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