Writhing Mass of Primal Chaos in First Dungeon, Really?

[Joe]

Frankly, I think corruption traps should be removed from some levels and given a higher DL to only appear later in the game.
I've had cat lord get turned into a wmopc, my only luck was that I killed cats before so I wouldn't get the ring anyway but it's perfectly possible to get cat lord screwed up like this because of a random corruption trap.
Perhaps the way those traps work could be change to make it impossible to turn a monster into wmopc in VD/DD/PC, no matter how many times it activates the trap.
That way you avoid ridiculous situations like the original poster's.

I sort of like how ChAoS is, well, able to mess up your game in more than a single sort of way. I also like (from a theoretical point of view) how ADOM is possibly unfair in every way possible. I love how the player and his character can be totally owned by blind and stupid fate and that there is no inbuilt 'right to win when played well' for every character. This is what makes ADOM different from the standard 'create a character and slash your way through hordes of monsters'-game; these generally are very obviously designed to make it slightly difficult for you, but with a little bit of analysis and practice every problem can be overcome quickly (and you can save/load forever until you fiddle out the right strategy). These games and worlds are designed to be beaten, which doesn't make much sense from an 'inner-game' point of view. ADOM does cater much less to the players needs and mindset. It's not cut in appropriately-sized pieces and problems, nor is it warning you in capitals that you are about to die. It does not protect you from early demise by bad luck with traps, nor does it forbid rivers to cut off your path towards the healing skill. You can be incredibly lucky with early altars and precrowning with Vanquisher while quickly dying to an invisible Ogre Magus on the next level.
When being/playing that character this experience can be painful and senseless and conflicts with our idea that a game should be made to be beaten; that a player, by buying or downloading it, has a 'right' to a fair chance to beat the game. But the absence of such notions is the core of ADOM life; better luck next time and there's no money back either! ADOM-players need to learn quickly that the game is not built to comfort and encourage them; beating this game has much to do with developing your own mindset and abilities. Inability to change your way of thinking 'what a game should be like' makes you quit it quickly.

[melphen]

I would rather run into a WMoPC early in the game and have my character die in the first dungeon than be pushed off my ice bridge into a pool of instant death after much more work in game. Getting killed fast is part of the game. Learning when to run and where to run too is a big part of moving forward in ADOM.

Trust me, I played around with the game in 1998, and didn't make real progress until 2012 because I didn't take the time to read everything that comes up on the screen (something you should really do) and I didn't run enough. Oh, and learn to use your tactics settings.

It happens man, it sucks and we all get pissed with it, but that is part of the game. There are things I would change, but so long as the game works you will find me playing.

[Whiskiz]

@Joe

You can (try) to glorify the problem however much you want with great philosophical ideas and creative journalism, but at the end of the day, you're saying that its great to have an end game enemy spawn in the very first dungeon and instantly kill you and for other situations like this, that insta-gibs are a great part of gaming and you support them wholeheartedly.

Really?

You like losing a game and restarting just for the sake of it? What satisfaction does this give you exactly may i ask? Or do you have no actual reason, that it just sounded good while typing said creative journalism? You enjoy situations in games where your going to die regardless of how good you are, your knowledge, how careful you are, your skill time effort blood sweat and tears. You actually prefer to have a game kill you off every now an then?

Goodluck with that, meanwhile ima keep playing and prefer my games where it comes down to skill, knowledge, positional awareness, map awareness combat awareness inventory awareness status awareness enemy potential/knowledge etc etc, not games that you will automatically die in, randomly, from poor design with a mixture of very whimsical ideology from the developers not unlike you have in your post.

P.S You have a way with words, you can make the worst ideas sound great and can dress up bad things to look amazing, you'd make a great politician :P

[Cactus]

You fail to see that this kind of of death is not simply caused by the RNG. If it was a stone block trap that smashes your mist elf: ok, that's bad luck. The only lesson would be not to play mist elves. But for almost every death apart from that there is a valuable lesson to be learned, and in your case it would be not to spend much time on a level with a corruption trap (indicated by messages). Actually, not spending much time on any level is even better (as in 'w'aiting for healing instead of visiting Jharod etc.) because you avoid starvation problems as well.
So if you see it this way then every death in ADOM leads to a better next trial and ultimately reaching a danger level where WMoPC really spawn. And then you'll be able to deal with them, trust me.

[Joe]

@Joe

You can (try) to glorify the problem however much you want with great philosophical ideas and creative journalism, but at the end of the day, you're saying that its great to have an end game enemy spawn in the very first dungeon and instantly kill you and for other situations like this, that insta-gibs are a great part of gaming and you support them wholeheartedly.

Really?

You like losing a game and restarting just for the sake of it? What satisfaction does this give you exactly may i ask? Or do you have no actual reason, that it just sounded good while typing said creative journalism? You enjoy situations in games where your going to die regardless of how good you are, your knowledge, how careful you are, your skill time effort blood sweat and tears. You actually prefer to have a game kill you off every now an then?

Goodluck with that, meanwhile ima keep playing and prefer my games where it comes down to skill, knowledge, positional awareness, map awareness combat awareness inventory awareness status awareness enemy potential/knowledge etc etc, not games that you will automatically die in, randomly, from poor design with a mixture of very whimsical ideology from the developers not unlike you have in your post.

P.S You have a way with words, you can make the worst ideas sound great and can dress up bad things to look amazing, you'd make a great politician :P

Thanks for the compliment! As for the rest: I agree I make the point rather strongly to make it more clear whereas in reality there is more of a sliding scale between tactics and RNG. Obviously in ADOM much depends on the choices and skills the player has; it would cease being a game if it didn't. The contrast is not meant so much with an absence of choice and strategy but rather with games where choice and strategy aren't needed because no matter how you fail to play strategically, you'll win in the end nonetheless.
So if you interpret my 'philosophical ideas' as opposed to choice and tactics, I would agree with you. These 'philosophical ideas' were however intended to be opposed to the irrelevance of tactics and choice to beat a game.

Maybe I should also argue for the awesome pleasures of lame nonstrategical fail games, just for practice

[melphen]

@Joe

You can (try) to glorify the problem however much you want with great philosophical ideas and creative journalism, but at the end of the day, you're saying that its great to have an end game enemy spawn in the very first dungeon and instantly kill you and for other situations like this, that insta-gibs are a great part of gaming and you support them wholeheartedly.

Really?

You like losing a game and restarting just for the sake of it? What satisfaction does this give you exactly may i ask? Or do you have no actual reason, that it just sounded good while typing said creative journalism? You enjoy situations in games where your going to die regardless of how good you are, your knowledge, how careful you are, your skill time effort blood sweat and tears. You actually prefer to have a game kill you off every now an then?

Goodluck with that, meanwhile ima keep playing and prefer my games where it comes down to skill, knowledge, positional awareness, map awareness combat awareness inventory awareness status awareness enemy potential/knowledge etc etc, not games that you will automatically die in, randomly, from poor design with a mixture of very whimsical ideology from the developers not unlike you have in your post.

P.S You have a way with words, you can make the worst ideas sound great and can dress up bad things to look amazing, you'd make a great politician :P

I think you might have gotten the wrong idea about this game. Normally you would be right. Player skill and all that knowledge should lead to victory. All the major brands in the market work just like that. ADOM however isn't like that at all. Player skill and knowledge gets you a shot but luck plays a role here for sure.

There is also A LOT more to that player knowledge part of the equation than a traditional video game. I'm not sure how far you have gotten into the game and I could assume you are spoiled at this point but instead I'll just say there are much more challenging and frustrating things to come.

For the record, I'm of the opinion that this game is all but impossible for the unspoiled. That is how I played this game for at least 5 years and it just didn't work for me. I kept notes and drew maps and all those ultra nerdy things and nothing got me to a point that I understood all the things that we're happening around me. Now there is a lot more to the game and you have to learn it all before you have even a shot at winning this game. There are those that seem to walk through it, frankly I can't imagine going for one of the ultra endings so close to any win at all but people do it all the time. I would love to a sit down talk with someone that could up my game, but it all takes time and practice.

All this adds up, get used to dying and starting over. Before long you will be like the rest of us, as happy to talk about a stupid and unpredictable death as you are the best character you have ever had.

[Joe]

You like losing a game and restarting just for the sake of it? What satisfaction does this give you exactly may i ask? Or do you have no actual reason, that it just sounded good while typing said creative journalism? You enjoy situations in games where your going to die regardless of how good you are, your knowledge, how careful you are, your skill time effort blood sweat and tears. You actually prefer to have a game kill you off every now an then?

In my post I already mentioned that as a player you will be annoyed etc... This is also true for me, so no I'm not enjoying that. But for a game to give enjoyment, it must be possible to lose it. That was actually the main point I was trying to make. One could argue that it's relatively easy to die in ADOM; this is surely true, which is why people can get great satisfaction from beating it finally after ten years of play.
Oh well, if you can't get the point I'm afraid I can't clear it up any more

[gut]

> Being at the very start of the game and first dungeon i obviously was not cursed or doomed or had bad luck in general or anything, FYI)

hmm, starting dungeon?

> not that id want to leave the cave anyway cause its meant to be that damn starter cave where you start,

I'm thinking I might see the problem here.

[melphen]

@gut

You know I read that without thinking of what it really meant.

[Blasphemous]

I sort of like how ChAoS is, well, able to mess up your game in more than a single sort of way. I also like (from a theoretical point of view) how ADOM is possibly unfair in every way possible. I love how the player and his character can be totally owned by blind and stupid fate and that there is no inbuilt 'right to win when played well' for every character. This is what makes ADOM different from the standard 'create a character and slash your way through hordes of monsters'-game; these generally are very obviously designed to make it slightly difficult for you, but with a little bit of analysis and practice every problem can be overcome quickly (and you can save/load forever until you fiddle out the right strategy). These games and worlds are designed to be beaten, which doesn't make much sense from an 'inner-game' point of view. ADOM does cater much less to the players needs and mindset. It's not cut in appropriately-sized pieces and problems, nor is it warning you in capitals that you are about to die. It does not protect you from early demise by bad luck with traps, nor does it forbid rivers to cut off your path towards the healing skill. You can be incredibly lucky with early altars and precrowning with Vanquisher while quickly dying to an invisible Ogre Magus on the next level.
When being/playing that character this experience can be painful and senseless and conflicts with our idea that a game should be made to be beaten; that a player, by buying or downloading it, has a 'right' to a fair chance to beat the game. But the absence of such notions is the core of ADOM life; better luck next time and there's no money back either! ADOM-players need to learn quickly that the game is not built to comfort and encourage them; beating this game has much to do with developing your own mindset and abilities. Inability to change your way of thinking 'what a game should be like' makes you quit it quickly.

Believe me, I have closed the gate numerous times and I have grabbed Andor Drakon by the tits a good many games too.
But there is one thing that doesn't work in your explanation.
Why don't we get balors, emperor liches and greater molochs in VD or PC? Because they are high level creatures designed to challenge late-game PCs.
WMoPCs are much the same.
A mid-game PC can deal with them with some effort but ultimately they are meant to be summoned by chaos wizards somewhere below D:40 and dealt with by end-game PCs on D:50.
Letting them be created in early dungeons is a waste of effort for the player and a needless feature that achieves nothing.

Your conception of computer games is wrong too. What other purpose is for them out there other than being finished? I mean ALL of them?
It is the journey that matters, it beats the destination every time, especially in ADOM.
Games aren't meant to be impossible to finish, no matter the degree of complexity and difficulty.
The idea behind the OP's post is that when something happens that makes your journey unbearable, you get discouraged, isn't that right?
It's not just about chaos messing your game because EVERY character in ADOM has the potential to become an archmage and show the middle finger to all that chaos by wishing for a thousand scrolls of chaos resistance or a near-limitless supply of amulets of life saving.
In the end, your ability to complete the game is directly proportional to the time you're willing to spend on that and if you're careful, there is no way you will not finish given enough time, period.

Looking from that perspective, WMoPCs in early dungeons are a plain oversight that should be addressed by a proper bugfix and that's it.
Their existence at that stage is detrimental to the gameplay and they present a needless challenge that doesn't teach the player facing it anything important.
Let's be constructive about the game and see its imperfect elements for what they are.