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Thread: Writhing Mass of Primal Chaos in First Dungeon, Really?

  1. #21
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    WMoPC's keep the same stats (HP at least) as whatever they were turned from. So usually they die in 1-2 hits at most, though their DV is a bit out of depth. A pit viper trap is far more dangerous, IMHO.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  2. #22
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    the masses aren't as bad as revenants, ogre magi, pit vipers, etc...
    they can smash doors, or at least they could in bygone days, but they usually don't on the first turn after you close them.
    I want to keep them because I have the fear of rng put into me every time I see that corruption message. I feel like I have to hurry and find it before some ooze does (so I can exploit it first)
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  3. #23
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    Cactus:
    "You fail to see that this kind of of death is not simply caused by the RNG. If it was a stone block trap that smashes your mist elf: ok, that's bad luck. The only lesson would be not to play mist elves. But for almost every death apart from that there is a valuable lesson to be learned, and in your case it would be not to spend much time on a level with a corruption trap (indicated by messages). Actually, not spending much time on any level is even better (as in 'w'aiting for healing instead of visiting Jharod etc.) because you avoid starvation problems as well.
    So if you see it this way then every death in ADOM leads to a better next trial and ultimately reaching a danger level where WMoPC really spawn. And then you'll be able to deal with them, trust me

    I didn't just say the problem was an early wmopc, but every possible insta-gib like that, and if there is this one, how many other potential situations like this are there? Which you yourself provide another example of: the mist elf being smashed by a rock.

    Though knowledge of the messages proceeding a wmopc should be learnt, and you say i should then learn to leave as soon as i recognize the danger, i already said that 1 - it was between me and my exit of the dungeon and 2 - i shouldn't have to leave the very first, starter dungeon, where your meant to start, level and gear because an end game monster spawned at the start of the game, why would you defend such a situation exactly anyway? smh. So the only valuable thing i learnt and was able to take away from this, is the fact that insta-gibs are possible in this game, not just this one personally which a few of you argue may or may not be completely fine (what about all the rest?)

    Melphen:
    "I think you might have gotten the wrong idea about this game. Normally you would be right. Player skill and all that knowledge should lead to victory. All the major brands in the market work just like that."

    I disagree, the major brands do not do this, the major brands make interactive movies that are just there to be played through for the sake of it, at no time do you ever need skill and knowledge to complete any game unless its on the hardest difficulty bare minimum.

    Some people here underestimate just how much of a challenge a game can still be even if you can pass it if you are skilled enough, how many thousands of different enemy combinations player character combinations gear combinations spell combinations status combinations map combinations etc are you going to come across and how many times are you going to have to successfully and *flawlessly* keep every, single, thing in mind? To then react accordingly and survive every, single, situation. Remember its a roguelike, one mistake ever, about any little detail, and your dead and you have to start over. That's without needless random insta-gibs thrown into the mix.

    You forget to accurately gauge the entirety of each enemies stats, your gear vs that enemy, any resistances it may have, any status effects it may inflict, any status effects you may inflict, whether your cursed, whether your corrupted, whether it will have an effect on your gear, what potions you may or may not be able to use, what those effects will be if not identified, spells, skills, whether any other enemies will join the fight, whether you are in a suitable position in the current dungeon level, whether you will step on any traps while fighting, whether an event like a pack of blink dogs will trigger, whether you will be able to make it back to the surface whether you have enough food for where you are, whether you can pray to your god or not, your standing with your god and the list goes on.... But no, having to keep all that in mind and more for the thousands of encounters you will go through is not enough, we still need random uncontrollable instant deaths to actually make it hard and good!

    Er...............

  4. #24
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    I see it as one of those ADoM things - in the very early game there just are things that will kill you. Removing these to me would take some of the sense of "realism" - such as it can be in a ridiculous fantasy world - as it would be obvious that the game was holding things back to keep you alive. Beyond about clvl 6 almost everything can be dealt with and death is the player's fault. As that's probably only 10 minutes of gameplay it's not a biggie for me.

    WMoPCs formed in this way are very rare and as I see it serve as a caution about what corruption can do to you. Any PC with a half-decent missile or wand/spell attack can deal with them, and others can run before they form. Ambush by barbarians/hill orcs, or pit vipers, is much more common form of unavoiable death.
    Gate closers: L+ DE Mindcrafter (p20), N= Gnomish Assasin (p20), N= Gnomish Mindcrafter (p23), N= Ratling Ranger (R49)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskiz View Post
    2 - i shouldn't have to leave the very first, starter dungeon, where your meant to start, level and gear
    There is no first dungeon. You may find your road blocked early on, yes. Because of a river, or some other reason. But adom has about 5 dungeons that you can use as "starting dungeon", so an occasional random road blocks isn't that bad. There is the SMC, the VD, the ID, the CoC and the puppy cave. Any of these are reasonable places to start the game.

    In addition, there do exist R/C combinations that are almost impossible to lose to the RNG. If your mist elf assassin dies in the early game, yes, bad luck. If your drakeling barbarian dies in the early game, it is almost certainly the result of a playing mistake. People often avoid such R/C because they find them boring. Fair enough, but then you will have to deal with greater risks, at least at the start.
    Last edited by grobblewobble; 10-14-2014 at 02:42 PM.
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

  6. #26
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    just wait until you meet one of those purple Js in a competition after you have talked a bunch of smack about the other team being a bunch of pansies
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  7. #27
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    One of the great things about ADOM, that took me a while to learn, is that it is very realistic in teaching you that it is OK to run. As grobblewobble pointed out, there is no really *first* dungeon in ADOM, there is no particular order in which you should do things, and in 99.9% of the games you will play, you won't be able to do everything, visit every place, and be able to kill everything (this is not that kind of game). Just as in real life, you will have to assess the situation, accept that sometimes you won't be able to do something you wanted, turn your back and run. Most of my early deaths occur when I am stubborn and decide that I *need* to save the puppy, or that I *need* to go through the SMC. Once you realize this, you will start advancing pretty fast.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskiz View Post
    i shouldn't have to leave the very first, starter dungeon, where your meant to start, level and gear because an end game monster spawned at the start of the game, why would you defend such a situation exactly anyway?
    True. The lesson that you can die early without getting any chance is very nice philosophically, but it's not very inviting to new players.
    At the moment, Joe's comments still describe quite well what kind of game this is: Shit happens! Life and death don't make compromises - except if you're a L50 necromancer. If you're dead, you're dead. It doesn't have to be your fault, but you shouldn't get angry about it if it happens.
    The problem is: the current ADOM playerbase really and honestly likes that existential message, therefore these kind of things will not be changed in essence. Team ADOM could only make a kind of 'easy mode' with things like: no traps before the player is level 6, big warning messages if you enter a level with danger level higher than your level, and that kind of things. They already made the tutorial mode, though; and because an easy mode would soften the precious existentialistic message, I'm not sure if they want to facilitate such a 'weakened' version of ADOM. I'd advise them to do it if only to get players into the game in a less rough way, but it's up to them.

    Of course nobody likes that your character dies after 40 hours of playing and there was nothing you could have done about it. Therefore that doesn't happen in ADOM, except when you try things that are too dangerous at your level like jfmancilla says. As soon as you encounter something dangerous, start working toward a retreat. It might be the most dangerous thing you'd find in there, but it might also be the least dangerous thing. You may not get a second chance to retreat, and there are always other dungeons.
    Last edited by Moeba; 10-15-2014 at 03:27 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moeba View Post
    I'd advise them to do it if only to get players into the game in a less rough way
    If people choose to always play the easy mode, it's their problem. Forcing them to play ADOM in the normal mode by not providing an easy mode is kinda rough. I think it's better to leave encouraging people to play in normal mode to the ADOM community.
    Last edited by Moeba; 10-15-2014 at 03:17 PM.

  10. #30
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    that is what memory editors are for
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

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