Classes and races favored by newbies: an empirical analysis

[moozooh]

I think this data strongly suggests a mild nerf to Cup and Raven—to something like 10% spell learning efficiency instead of 20 and +6 spd instead of +10. Candle has already been nerfed [somewhat] recently, but still remains a strong all-rounder; these two should be no different, they're way too good as they currently are.

Also, Hurthling Fighter so unfavorable for the first win? People were suggesting Mist Elf Thieves before, I wonder which is worse really (outside of elves dying to random corridor traps in early game 90% of the time).

[Silfir]

As the periodically repeated reminder, ADOM is not a multiplayer game and certain star signs being a good bit stronger than others is not actually a problem until it becomes egregious. Candle got nerfed because it singlehandedly out-performed Healing at 100, and neither Cup nor Raven are anywhere close to being that stupid good.

Sometimes I miss the days when ADOM going back into development was far out of reach and discussion was centered on the game that was rather than how to change it.

I'd say only a relatively small percentage of starsigns were actually consciously picked. It would get old pretty fast to keep rerolling manually and while reroller software exists not nearly everyone actually bothered to use it. As such the statistics to me show that if starsigns did get picked, it would end up being Candle, Raven or Cup, and that players would consider some starsigns to be worthless enough to reroll the character over them, such as Unicorn.

(At least I'd consider "reroll-worthiness" to be more of a factor than the actual influence of starsigns on winning odds, which are extremely minor, with the exception of old Candle, and Raven to a lesser extent. Cup I really don't think is all that powerful. High usage does not always equal great power, after all. Just look at the class usage statistics. Druids are at the bottom because they're the least exciting of the spellcasting classes, not because they're actually harder to win with than Farmers.)

Falcon's got a decent score because it's a good bit better than the starsigns below it, as a bonus talent is a good boost even without the healing factor attached. If ADOM started out character creation by letting you pick your starsign, Falcon would probably occupy the bottom spot in usage.

[gut]

> Sometimes I miss the days

me too

[moozooh]

Wah wah. :P
This is "the game that is" we're discussing. TB does intend to continue developing the game and gathering our feedback. If you think something doesn't feel right, or stifles your freedom, or doesn't realize its potential, then it's good both for you, and the other players, and the game itself if you voice it. Anyway, if you wanted a thorough discussion on the current state of things, I'm up for it.

As the periodically repeated reminder, ADOM is not a multiplayer game and certain star signs being a good bit stronger than others is not actually a problem until it becomes egregious. Candle got nerfed because it singlehandedly out-performed Healing at 100, and neither Cup nor Raven are anywhere close to being that stupid good.

Raven actually is stupid good with any ranged attack specialists (as well as 2H melee specialists who want to wield RCT/TotRR) because it translates into plenty of additional turns in early game, basically doubling the survivability by the virtue of taking no damage from 1-on-1 fights. There's a reason some people consciously choose it even with pure casters and pure melee (it's pretty incredible with, say, Duelists who have decent DV but can't tank large hits, or any low-Stength character who carries heavy equipment) over the signs that would be otherwise more fitting; adding more speed than all the three talents dedicated to it combined seems well overboard.

Cup may not be stupid good, it's just that the other caster signs are so lackluster in comparison it's not even a contest most of the time, especially if the character's race is naturally slow at gaining XP (like Mist Elves) or if the main class powers come from level ups rather than reading or something like that. It also adds +2 Learning, which is a very significant bonus considering how valuable Le is for everyone at any point in the game. The sign can be a game-changer if your race is initially illiterate, and makes life significantly easier if you're going for a double pre-crowning or some of the challenges (seems like an obvious choice for Steel Man, for one)—more so than both of the talents dedicated to it. I can't say it's absurdly powerful, but these small things add up a lot more than most people give them credit for because they synergize and scale off of each other. Gaining levels faster means less background corruption, safer ToEF, faster access to optional sidequests, being more powerful in deeper dungeons, meaning less running away, meaning less background corruption again, and so on. This is a lot more powerful than an extra talent or something of that sort. (I actually think talents are rather overrated, aside from the few that can't be compensated for by training/equipment/corpse effects.)

The point is, out of twelve starsigns, the actual sensible choice (about 60% in gilesc's diagrams) is between about three of them. In other words, there are effectively four signs: Candle, Raven, Cup, and Who-cares-give-me-something-at-random (ranging from alright to horrible). I suspected something like this would be the case, but statistics gathered here just showed how uncomfortably lopsided the situation is. Now, do we agree on that? Does anyone else think this should change somehow?

[Silfir]

I said "stupid good" with reference to old Candle, which provided a passive healing bonus (2 HP every twelve turns) that surpassed Healing at 100 (1 HP per 8 turns). AND you get a talent. That's stupid good. Raven has the next best bonus, but it's not even close to having the same impact. Candle was nerfed, but only so much that it was no longer better than Healing at 100, and is still very good, probably equal to Raven if anything.

I'm pretty well aware of the advantages of Cup or Raven, and I never questioned that they're better than the rest of the bunch. What I disagreed with was what I saw as the knee-jerk notion that the mere fact that there is an imbalance necessitates rectifying action. Starsigns aren't "chosen". They're a part of the ADOM character-creation process, and if there's anything you can say about the myriad of options that character creation provides in ADOM it's that the results vary from anywhere between "pitifully weak" (gray elven farmer) to "free ride to the mid-game" (orc barbarian). Star signs, like the question system, have only a minor influence on this.

What star signs exist to provide is ideas for the kind of character you want to create. They come with aspects, such as Loyalty or Knowledge, and their bonus exist to encourage experimenting with different character archetypes, such as spellcasters or rangers or fighters. The goal here is not balance, it's variety.

Nerfing the most widely-used choices by the "hammer in the nail that sticks out" method does nothing to increase variety; if you consistently apply this method, you arrive at twelve equally viable options that all do the same - mostly nothing. If anything, the way to go would be to boost the other star signs so they better support the archetypes they are connected to. That, at least, is what happened with the changes that Thomas already made - Tree received a bonus to Toughness and PV, and Wolf's nutrition bonus was boosted to 25%.



Most statistics don't say nearly as much as one may be tempted to pull out of them. What looks like an "uncomfortably lopsided" situation to you to me looks just fine. I mean, Unicorn does basically nothing and is by far the top candidate for an instant reroll, and it still shows up in a decent number of YAVPs, which highlights just how little starsigns matter for the purposes of balance.

[moozooh]

What star signs exist to provide is ideas for the kind of character you want to create. They come with aspects, such as Loyalty or Knowledge, and their bonus exist to encourage experimenting with different character archetypes, such as spellcasters or rangers or fighters. The goal here is not balance, it's variety.

Sure, let's look at it that way.

Raven: "Death, Messengers, Companion, Tricks. Harder to trick by deceptions, messengers will reach you faster, you are faster (+10 to speed), companions are more powerful, +2 to initial Perception".
Death, Messengers, Companion, Tricks? What do I make out of this—that this I should create a Bard or a Necromancer with this sign? (Sure, they'll do alright, but only because of the generic +10 spd—nothing else has any bearing.) Should it be chaotic ranged attacker? What do the deceptions and messengers have to do with anything I see in the game, and how does death play into this; should it be a Chaos Knight or something? Thief, Assassin? The information is confusing and disconnected from gameplay: "death" is rather superfluous in every way, there is only one "messenger" in the entire game, "companions" are pretty much nothing you think of initially, and "deceptions" are caused by only one family of monsters and are largely inconsequential. I'm not getting a clear picture, other than "if my character is born under this sign, it should kill".

Book: "Knowledge, Learning, Laws. Lawful tendencies (it's harder to change), one free skill increase per level, increased chance to learn spells, +3 to initial Learning."
Ok, I get clear lawful spellcaster vibes here. No further questions asked.

Wand: "Laws, Neutral Magic, Leadership. Lawful tendencies (it's harder to change), spells for neutral casters are 10% cheaper in power points, +2 to initial Charisma, starts out with lawful tendencies but gets +2 to Mana and 10% more power points if neutral initially."
Similarly, this seems relatively clear: great for neutral spellcasters/semi-spellcasters, perhaps companion/minion users (definitely Druids; Bards and Merchants, perhaps?).

Unicorn: "Grace, Beauty, Purity, Innocence, Dignity. Harder to corrupt by Chaos effects, hard to change to a different alignment once lawful, +2 to initial Appearance."
The only message I get from this information is that it should probably be a lawful character (so not a Chaos Knight nor Assassin I guess) who can take their time exploring without fear of being corrupted. A... Healer or a Priest? Unfortunately, no problems in ADOM universe are really solved by being innocent and/or beautiful because there are no quests solvable by dialogues. I would expect this starsign to be of greater relevance in a dialogue-driven game like Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment, had starsigns existed there. ADOM is all about killing one guy and fetching an item stolen or taken from the other guy (after he's killed as well). It's not bad, but you get weird conflicts on the concept level.

Salamander: "Magic (especially fire), Eloquence. Fire magic is 20% cheaper in power points, +1 to initial Charisma, +3 to initial Mana, +20% to power points (always)."
Ok, so a fire-based caster or semi-caster, most certainly Elementalist, perhaps Weaponsmith. Sounds rather straightforward (eloquent?).

Dragon: "Ferocity, Combat, Might, Rulership, Anger, Combat Magic. 10% increased effects from Tactics settings, -3 to initial Willpower, +2 to initial Strength, +1 to initial Toughness, costs to increase weapon skills are reduced by 10%, combat magic is 10% cheaper in power points."
Sounds exciting; this seems versatile but rather unambiguous. I picture a powerful warrior, possibly chaotic, battle mage-type semi-caster who charges forward head-on, does a lot of melee fighting and uses combat magic generously in tougher situations. Bonuses seem to be geared more towards the melee side, so it definitely shouldn't be someone who constantly backtracks to keep themself safe, but also not an intellectually challenged person (so not a Barbarian nor a Beastfighter). Possibly someone geared towards active defense: strike first, kill quickly. Chaos Knight, Archer, Monk? Paladin, or Druid, too, perhaps? Not sure about Ranger and Assassin.

Sword: "Combat, Execution, Tactics, Strategy. Positive modifiers from Tactics settings are increased by 10%, costs to increase melee weapon skills are reduced by 20%, +1 to the initial Learning score."
Perfectly straightforward: a weapon-based melee specialist.

Falcon: Nobility, Hunt, Force of Personality. Very good at surviving in the wilderness, +2 to initial Willpower, +1 to initial Charisma, one free talent.
Sounds rather ambiguous. Force of personality... Bard, Merchant? Mindcrafter, Archer? The concepts of nobility and hunt are somewhat disconnected from the gameplay and profession roster, so it's hard to place them.

Cup: "Collected Knowledge, Experience, Camaraderie. Requires 10% less experience points to advance in level, receives one free skill advance every two levels, learns spells more effectively (20% better than others), +2 to initial Learning."
Knowledge hints at spellcasting which is supported by the bonus to spells. So a generic spellcaster... with a companion or something? The concept of camaraderie is, once again, rather disconnected from anything I know about the game and its universe.

Candle: "Hope, Life, Serenity, Transition. Heals faster, the gods are more forgiving when asked for favors, one free talent."
I get piety vibes here. Sounds fitting for Priests, Healers, and Paladins; I even feel like this would be suitable for Farmers.

Wolf: "Hunt, Ferocity, Community with Nature, Devotion, Loyalty. +3 to initial Perception, +3 to initial Willpower, food is more nutritious for you (by +25%)."
This hunt again... So Rangers, Druids, Beastfighters, Barbarians, Archers... Paladins, possibly Monks? Definitely not anyone chaotic. Okay, seems to be clearer than Falcon at least.

Tree: "Tradition, Inflexibility. It's generally hard to change alignment, +5 to initial Willpower, +2 Toughness, +1 PV."
High discipline vibes here. So Monks, Mindcrafters, Paladins? Perhaps Beastfighters and Healers.

I come to several conclusions after this little thought experiment:
1) there are no starsigns that clearly indicate pronounced chaotic mindset except probably Raven and Dragon (not a single hint otherwise);
2) the most thematically ambiguous starsigns—Raven, Falcon, Cup, Unicorn—include both some of the best and the worst, with the more clearly defined sings being middle of the pack in terms of their strength (with the exception of Candle which can be put to good use by literally everyone);
3) some of the archetypes pictured by the signs do not connect with the gameplay and its principles;

If anything, the way to go would be to boost the other star signs so they better support the archetypes they are connected to. That, at least, is what happened with the changes that Thomas already made - Tree received a bonus to Toughness and PV, and Wolf's nutrition bonus was boosted to 25%.

Sure, I'm all up for that. I have rather strong reasons to consider most of the bonuses to be completely inconsequential and overshadowed by stat dice rolls. +1 or +2 to any given stat isn't saving you from an early death, and it doesn't matter much by the time you get to training (unless it's Learning, in which case it's enormously useful starting from level 1 and up until endgame where you want to concentrate on offense/defense). Stuff like 10% PP cost reduction or tactics modifiers do diddly squat due to how rounding penalties and diminishing returns. Most of the chance-based effects are largely inconsequential or overshadowed by other effects.

I think thematic bonuses should be pronounced to the point where they decidedly help certain combinations, builds, or challenge runs (like Tree for Mindcrafters or Wolf for some challenge game types), but not to the point where it would be powerful enough to give a huge boost to everyone (Candle, Raven) or be inconsequential enough for everyone (Falcon, Unicorn). Of course, balancing things like this should take many things into account.

Potency of stat bonuses depends on the potency of stats themselves and whether the bonus is high enough to relieve the character of the need to use conventional training methods (and thus on the potency of training methods themselves). I know that by the time I reach Dwarftown I'd be all set for having 25-27 in Wi/To/Dx and 18+ St; Pe will be taken care of by carrot juice and carrot rooms. I know I will attempt to maximize Le on character creation regardless of the race/class because of how useful it is. If I go Tree with a Mindcrafter it may well propel me above the training threshold for Wi, which makes the bonus actually significant, with the added To/PV being the icing that would push me to decide the choice in this favor.

The potency of an extra talent depends entirely on how potent talents are. Heir is rarely advisable due to how quickly most gifts become obsolete and/or destroyed by environmental effects (some of the notable exceptions being Thieves and Mist Elven Priests, whose gifts can be carried well into endgame); Treasure Hunter, on the other hand, is available and greatly recommended for everyone as long as you take Alert on creation. Then there's Sixth Sense which is a must-have for glass cannons, Healthy which stacks with other regeneration bonuses (easily one of the strongest and most useful talents in the game), Strong Thrower which is great for some challenge games, and Long Stride, whose effect is similar to a speed bonus without any of the associated downsides (and no other means to achieve the same effect aside of 7LB and class powers). Most of the other talents make little to no difference or become obsolete by the moment they become available (Immune to Pain, Mithril Skin, Weapon Masters, Extended Magic, etc.). Maybe I should submit an RFE about this; I'll think about it.

What looks like an "uncomfortably lopsided" situation to you to me looks just fine. I mean, Unicorn does basically nothing and is by far the top candidate for an instant reroll, and it still shows up in a decent number of YAVPs, which highlights just how little starsigns matter for the purposes of balance.

In fact, this indicates that it and the other signs except the dominant three are, indeed, actually doing nothing and are completely interchangeable. If starsigns were suppose to boost something, many of them fail to do it.

[Blasphemous]

Raven actually is stupid good with any ranged attack specialists (as well as 2H melee specialists who want to wield RCT/TotRR) because it translates into plenty of additional turns in early game, basically doubling the survivability by the virtue of taking no damage from 1-on-1 fights. There's a reason some people consciously choose it even with pure casters and pure melee (it's pretty incredible with, say, Duelists who have decent DV but can't tank large hits, or any low-Stength character who carries heavy equipment) over the signs that would be otherwise more fitting; adding more speed than all the three talents dedicated to it combined seems well overboard.

I disagree. I usually choose raven for the early trident and that's it.
Speed bonus is nice but running around strained and satiated negates it.
Lower speed means faster leveling too, though I'm not a fan of fast exp gains, especially in the early game, but it's probably because I spend so much time in SMC.
+10 speed doesn't permit a hit&run strategy, I don't know where you're getting that, we must be playing different games.
No damage in 1-on-1 fights? Come on, this isn't my experience and I'm picking raven quite often.
The best thing out of that +10 speed is that you can outrun cats and lock them behind in empty rooms.
Everything else is superficial. Monsters are being generated randomly and while you're trying to hit&run something, another something comes behind in a corridor and your speed advantage vanishes.
Ranged attack specialists don't even need this that much because they are already deadly with their missiles. An archer with raven doesn't kill things more effectively than one without.
Given the amount of monsters encountered, abundance of choke points, tactics settings, pv/dv combinations, commonly found offensive wands - range combat-oriented classes really don't benefit as much from raven as you suggest.

The speed bonus of raven is really good in one case: a weak character which can't face things in melee all the time but only has average ranged capability. Like an elven mindcrafter.
In every other case, raven star sign's speed bonus is nice but not even close to stupid good.
Duelists can tank anything. If you can't tank something as a duelist, you're doing it wrong.
You need more armor or more dv, not more speed. Anybody can be a hit&run specialist, not everybody can tank. Duelists however sure can tank like nobody else due to their class powers that reduce energy cost of attacks.
In fact it's best if duelists don't move that much in combat because movement negates those very class power bonuses by sheer change in energy cost. Speed has negligible impact on that.
When things get hot, it best to just teleport away and anybody can do that with the guaranteed wand and more than common potions of booze.

Cup may not be stupid good, it's just that the other caster signs are so lackluster in comparison it's not even a contest most of the time, especially if the character's race is naturally slow at gaining XP (like Mist Elves) or if the main class powers come from level ups rather than reading or something like that.

I have to disagree again. Cup is useless. +2 Learning is a "very significant bonus"? Please.
It's well within character roll variation so the bonus isn't noticeable at all.
+2 learning is the equivalent of a single blessed crystal of knowledge. Quite pathetic.
If it was +5, I would probably pick this star sign once every ~10 characters.
As it is, I don't ever choose it. Not in 15+ years of playing ADOM.
The Cup's feature of learning spells more effectively is useless.
Caster classes don't need it because they are already great at learning spells and could use something else.
Melee classes don't need it because they won't be casting spells anyway - spellbooks are very rare for non-casters, they usually don't have concentration and their learning is low, PP is low, cost of PP is high for casting anything that's not light or slow monster, it triples if you bookcast, you learn *very* few castings per read and they are drained much sooner when you cast... with or without cup, none of that changes.
Only the borderline classes *might* marginally benefit from cup, in case where a more powerful spell is found via spellbook and the PC level doesn't yet permit them to learn it effectively.
It is a very narrow range of usage which further nullifies Cup's perceived value.
10% less exp is again useless. It translates to one extra level every ~10 or so levels.
Completely useless, even for races that gain the exp slowly (or especially for them since a small value increased by 10% is still small.)
It equals 3-4 steel golems killed between levels 1-15, which is easily achieved by any character with 3-4 quarrels of construct slaying.
One free skill advance every two levels - this is roughly half equal to reaching one of the threshold levels of learning - 10, 15, 20 etc.
In other words - it's useless.
Cup seems to offer some nice bonuses at first glance but when you compare that versus actual in-game impact, it turns out they're virtually non exist

The measure of a given star sign's usefulness is by the bonuses it grants that cannot be otherwise replicated in-game with other means, or their replication would be prohibitively difficult or resource/time consuming.
That's why raven's primary power is early trident - you can't get this feature in any other way.
Candle's extra healing on top of healing skill is also impossible to replicate.
Every other star sign is useless because their effects can be relatively easily duplicated in the first half of the game OR their non-replicable effects have marginal impact on the gameplay (take unicorn for example).

Gaining levels faster means less background corruption, safer ToEF, faster access to optional sidequests, being more powerful in deeper dungeons, meaning less running away, meaning less background corruption again, and so on.

Yet again, I have to dismantle your theory.
Background corruption has been lowered considerably to accommodate players that wish to explore the six new optional caves.
To be frank, those caves give the opportunity for finding more sources of corruption removal and in the end that negates the impact of background corruption entirely.
How does faster leveling make TOEF safer?
You are either ready for it or not. If you are, you enter and leave with the orb. If you are not, you die or you prepare some more then enter and leave with the orb.
Star sign has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if you're level 18 or 19 because the difference is superficial.
In all my days of playing ADOM I have never complained about access to side quest being too restricted by PC's level.
In fact it was quite the opposite, I had to slow down in order to fit into the window for the pyramid.
I had to slow exping down again to fit into the maze window.
I had to slow down to more easily manage alignment shifts and achieving extreme alignment, since it's so much harder on higher levels.
A mindcrafter has to slow down before level 25 to max out their willpower and fully benefit from the class power that increases it by 5.
In all those instances, Cup would have actually been detrimental to my efforts or even outright harmful.
I constantly complain about characters leveling up too fast.
Less running away? Cup has less than marginal impact on that, if at all.

All that said, I agree that the other star signs should be buffed to offer players an actual difficult choice.
Having some star signs as useless as they are right now is just not the good way to go.
It may not be a multiplayer game but it's still a role-playing game and by having such a drastic qualitative difference between star signs, you only restrict typical role-playing choices.
I personally think star signs should buffed to the point where all of them would be used in specific character builds instead of choosing between only two.
Making the other other ones inferior adds nothing to the game.
Making starsign selection random instead of letting the player decide only results in rerolls and 3rd party star sign selectors.
Again, no added value.

[Silfir]

In fact, this indicates that it and the other signs except the dominant three are, indeed, actually doing nothing and are completely interchangeable. If starsigns were suppose to boost something, many of them fail to do it.

Unicorn does very little, yes. The rest definitely do - but people aren't rerolling into them. Don't confuse usage levels with power. Remember, Druid is the least common class across these YAVPs, but that doesn't allow the conclusion that Druid is the weakest class. Tree, Wolf etc. all provide a boost (a significant one), it's just not a boost people are rerolling into the class to get. When people do feel like minmaxing, they reroll until they get Raven, or Candle, or Cup, because they are considered the strongest - that's all the statistics say, and I don't think it's an actual problem.

[blunk]

CUP
In my experience +2 learning is worth a lot when playing races like orc or drakeling.
The extra talent basically means getting treasure hunter 3 lvls earlier, or adding a defensive talent inbetween. Very helpful in the early game.
Both are maybe negligable late game.

Unicorn
I thought it reduced corruption from "xxx hits you and you feel corrupted" but that reduction is maybe too low?
Would it be too good if it reduced corruption from eating chatic corpses like amw and the like?

[Silfir]

As far as I'm aware, Unicorn reduces corruption suffered from anything, even background corruption (though in most places rounding-up leads to background corruption staying the same). It's simply not very useful because corruption only starts being a factor after your character has reached the endgame, and even then very rarely is actually an issue. Reaching the endgame in the first place is the challenging part of ADOM.