what would you do?

[JellySlayer]

Funny how polarized some opinions could be.
I almost exclusively play elven races and I despise drakes - their cold blood is annoying in the tower because of the constant damage and their lifespan is sooo short.
A gray elf doesn't mind being hit by ghosts and ghost lords because of several hundred years worth of aging while drakes...
I think elves level a bit too fast, but gnomes are just ridiculous in this department.
I don't like fast leveling races because they restrict my options due to level-dependent locations that seal off when you advance past a certain level.

Elves are amazing for most classes because:
- their high learning score allows 5 or more skill increases per level and learning spells is trivial (terrific assassins and monks and of course wizards/necros)
- their high mana allows an extra talent upon char creation (great bards and rangers)
- their dexterity is usually around 20 and quickly gets to 26 with moss, which translates to extra speed and DV (archers mmm)
- their perception is often at 20 which provides a nice view radius and other bonuses
- their initial willpower isn't high but the potential is very high, hence they work well as mindcrafters
- many classes start with elven chain mails which may very well be +8 PV, don't rust and weigh 10s (duelists)
- they often get crowned with sun's messenger which synergizes nicely with their natural talent for archery
- appearance which helps with shop prices, corruption and offers a nice incentive for drinking potions of exchange
- lifespan
- LIFESPAN, it's invaluable in a GUV

Low strength and toughness including potentials are somewhat annoying but not really a huge problem.
Elves are amazing, with gray elves being the best race out there.

Elves make terrible mindcrafters. All of the benefits of being an elf are basically wasted on them--yeah, they get okay Wi, but mindcrafters really need St and To, especially in early game, because they're really frail and their abilities are mostly worthless until at least the midgame. And then, you can't learn spells at all, and have really, really terrible skill dice, so your high Le is wasted; the high Ma is nice (though I think mindcraft now trains it?), but again, it's only late game that you really need it. Lifespan is a minor, but nice benefit, but dwarves have great lifespans and are much, much more durable, and, in fact, have better Wi than elves as well. There is no reason to choose and elf mindcrafter over a dwarf, IMHO.

On the more general question, I think hurthlings are probably the best race overall--great stats, great starting skills, extra missile benefits, best shop prices, guaranteed extra starting talent. They play well with almost every class (they're mediocre casters, but that's about it). I don't care much for the elf races as a whole--low To is just too much of a longterm hazard for most classes (basically all melee classes) to be particularly playable. Unless you really love re-rolling and doing the Village Dungeon, I guess.

[Dlightfull]

Elves make terrible mindcrafters. All of the benefits of being an elf are basically wasted on them--yeah, they get okay Wi, but mindcrafters really need St and To, especially in early game, because they're really frail and their abilities are mostly worthless until at least the midgame. And then, you can't learn spells at all, and have really, really terrible skill dice, so your high Le is wasted; the high Ma is nice (though I think mindcraft now trains it?), but again, it's only late game that you really need it. Lifespan is a minor, but nice benefit, but dwarves have great lifespans and are much, much more durable, and, in fact, have better Wi than elves as well. There is no reason to choose and elf mindcrafter over a dwarf, IMHO.

On the more general question, I think hurthlings are probably the best race overall--great stats, great starting skills, extra missile benefits, best shop prices, guaranteed extra starting talent. They play well with almost every class (they're mediocre casters, but that's about it). I don't care much for the elf races as a whole--low To is just too much of a longterm hazard for most classes (basically all melee classes) to be particularly playable. Unless you really love re-rolling and doing the Village Dungeon, I guess.

Dark elfs have more WI than a dwarf and Find Weakness and Alertness on top. I'd pick a DE over a Dwarf for pretty much any class, tbh. Toughness majes early game a bir more difficult, but eventually it gets trained to at least 26 anyway, putting it on par with all other races.

[JellySlayer]

Dark elfs have more WI than a dwarf and Find Weakness and Alertness on top. I'd pick a DE over a Dwarf for pretty much any class, tbh. Toughness majes early game a bir more difficult, but eventually it gets trained to at least 26 anyway, putting it on par with all other races.

Unless you're lucky with stat swapping with PoEX, "eventually" in this case being probably late-midgame, ie. the point in the game when you've already won. Your elf got 26 To just before the ToEF, meaning you were walking on eggshells for most of the game. A Dwarf will get 26 To as soon as he finds herbs. Maybe level 6. Considering that the early game is by far the hardest part of the game and the part of the game where most characters die, it makes sense to try to optimize your early game play rather than worry about how your character will end up later in the game. You'll win many, many more games that way, with much less frustration.

[Dlightfull]

Unless you're lucky with stat swapping with PoEX, "eventually" in this case being probably late-midgame, ie. the point in the game when you've already won. Your elf got 26 To just before the ToEF, meaning you were walking on eggshells for most of the game. A Dwarf will get 26 To as soon as he finds herbs. Maybe level 6. Considering that the early game is by far the hardest part of the game and the part of the game where most characters die, it makes sense to try to optimize your early game play rather than worry about how your character will end up later in the game. You'll win many, many more games that way, with much less frustration.

About 50%, if not more, of my games are lost to my carelessness and more toughness would've not saved me. Another 50% of the ones that left, is due to some wrong decisions on my part, like not healing and bumping into a trap and stuff like that. I doubt more toughness would save me in this case either.

You see, the main thing is the way we play/enjoy the game. I like overpowered characters. I don't care if i lose 100 of the squishy ones, i want the one that gets to do amazing things.

For me, this game is not about wining as many as i can, is not about managing to survive with any char, it's about building powerhouses. I like the char building. That's why those that i manage to get to the end, or near the end, are in about day 150, because i am not rushing anywhere. I like to clear as many areas as i can, even though some of them are utterly useless for the win. I like to have alertness, to laugh in the face of nuurag-varn. I like to have find weakness, to crit on more than half of my hits with AotME, etc. I like elves. I dislike gnomes and dwarfes, and hurtlings for that matter, since they are all small and fat and ugly.

SO, in the end, all these arguments about which race is better gets down to playstyle. For my playstyle, elves are better. For yours, dwarves may be better.

Edit: I can even quit or suicide a promising char if i don't like something about it or if i made some mistake, which for many may seem pitiful, that spoils the fun. I just quit a pretty good DE Wizard because i was tired of not finding the SoA spellbook after about 2 hours of scumming in the ID. I can drink early from pools and just quit the char if i don't like the results. Everybody has his own definition of fun . I also never swap stats with PoEx.

[JellySlayer]

Another 50% of the ones that left, is due to some wrong decisions on my part, like not healing and bumping into a trap and stuff like that. I doubt more toughness would save me in this case either.

Uh, having extra To is exactly what would save you or bumping into a trap, because extra To means more HP to survive that kind of thing. That's sort of my point--you can avoid those kinds of deaths, or, at least, you can minimize them. Having a lot of HP gives you a much bigger buffer to protect you against the RNG or against poor play.

You see, the main thing is the way we play/enjoy the game. I like overpowered characters. I don't care if i lose 100 of the squishy ones, i want the one that gets to do amazing things.

For me, this game is not about wining as many as i can, is not about managing to survive with any char, it's about building powerhouses. I like the char building. That's why those that i manage to get to the end, or near the end, are in about day 150, because i am not rushing anywhere. I like to clear as many areas as i can, even though some of them are utterly useless for the win. I like to have alertness, to laugh in the face of nuurag-varn. I like to have find weakness, to crit on more than half of my hits with AotME, etc. I like elves. I dislike gnomes and dwarfes, and hurtlings for that matter, since they are all small and fat and ugly.

Building a powerhouse is mostly independent of race, or even class, for that matter. It's basically just a matter of equipment. Though I'm still confused as to how this argument applies to a monk, which would get those skills with any race.

If personal prejudice against little people is the issue, maybe go watch/read Game of Thrones and learn to love the dwarf.

SO, in the end, all these arguments about which race is better gets down to playstyle. For my playstyle, elves are better. For yours, dwarves may be better.

Well, I have yet to meet someone who believes that humans or ratlings are the best race. There are some races that are definitely a bit gimped. I'm actually not saying that dwarves are always better than elves. Depends on both race and class. For a caster, yeah, elves are a pretty good choice. For a monk, mindcrafter, thief, farmer, healer, assassin, paladin, duelist... definitely a dwarf plays better in my books. Sure you can win with an elf, or build a powerhouse, if that's what you like, but you can do those things with a human or ratling too. You're just increasing or decreasing the degree of difficulty of doing so.

[grobblewobble]

Your elf got 26 To just before the ToEF, meaning you were walking on eggshells for most of the game.

It also means that a dwarf or drakeling at this point of the games would have had a toughness score in the 30-40 range from the same potions.

And a learning score so high that it doesn't matter any more.

The only advantage of elves is being good at spellcasting right from the start, if they have books. For classes that do not have books right from the start, that advantage is not worth much.

About 50%, if not more, of my games are lost to my carelessness and more toughness would've not saved me.

I don't believe it, sorry. The death you posted (to a red dragon) would never have happened to a tougher race.

[Dlightfull]

Uh, having extra To is exactly what would save you or bumping into a trap, because extra To means more HP to survive that kind of thing. That's sort of my point--you can avoid those kinds of deaths, or, at least, you can minimize them. Having a lot of HP gives you a much bigger buffer to protect you against the RNG or against poor play.

Building a powerhouse is mostly independent of race, or even class, for that matter. It's basically just a matter of equipment. Though I'm still confused as to how this argument applies to a monk, which would get those skills with any race.

If personal prejudice against little people is the issue, maybe go watch/read Game of Thrones and learn to love the dwarf.

Well, I have yet to meet someone who believes that humans or ratlings are the best race. There are some races that are definitely a bit gimped. I'm actually not saying that dwarves are always better than elves. Depends on both race and class. For a caster, yeah, elves are a pretty good choice. For a monk, mindcrafter, thief, farmer, healer, assassin, paladin, duelist... definitely a dwarf plays better in my books. Sure you can win with an elf, or build a powerhouse, if that's what you like, but you can do those things with a human or ratling too. You're just increasing or decreasing the degree of difficulty of doing so.

First, when you run along with 10Hp, it doesn't matter if you have a max HP of 100 or 50, you still have only those 10 points between you and death.

Second, not that it matters, but i've read "A song of Ice and Fire", all them 5 books, and even if that dwarf is cool in those books, he still looks bad and i still don't like him (nor any other from there, with the exception of the one that died too soon).

It also means that a dwarf or drakeling at this point of the games would have had a toughness score in the 30-40 range from the same potions.

And a learning score so high that it doesn't matter any more.

The only advantage of elves is being good at spellcasting right from the start, if they have books. For classes that do not have books right from the start, that advantage is not worth much.

I don't believe it, sorry. The death you posted (to a red dragon) would never have happened to a tougher race.

Potions of potential toughness + herbs won't get you above 26, sorry. And i use potions of toughness after i get those 26, so after the training with herbs, all the races end up with the same toughness, depending on the RNG.

Exactly that's what i like, to be able to use spells from the start. There are usually at least a couple of books in the early game. The shop in the outlaw village has more often than not at least one book. As i stated earlier, that spell of Acid Bolt allowed me to clear the Greater Vault faster and get the Wyrmlance to kill the ACW with. Had i not that spell, i would have to find other means to deal with that. I am pretty sure a dwarf would have not been able to do that.

That death to that red dragon happened because i got into melee range on low health, when i could run away and heal, having more than enough means to do so, so it's pure stupidness on my part, more toughness would have not saved me.

[Blasphemous]

I believe that regeneration matters more than actual toughness and HP.
I have lost plenty of chars with lots of HP and To in the early game because I could not regenerate lost HP - no healing, no candle.

I've had a dwarf, ratling, human and drakeling aged to very old by ghost lords and eventually die of old age, I didn't like that.
I frequently get my elves aged 200 or more years so I think their lifespan is absolutely crucial to long-term survival and one of the main features that make them a better race.
Elves also start with around 20 Dx which helps them avoid traps and get more speed and DV in the early game.
With moss you can max out Dx at 26 pretty soon and enjoy even more bonuses.

I agree that elves may not be particularly good for mindcrafters in the early game but the longer an elven mindcrafter survives, the more powerful he becomes.
Especially dark elven mindcrafters are enjoyable because of how the race improves an otherwise terrible skillset.
Before getting GTB, mindcrafters struggle against more powerful undead due to the inherent risks of using mindcrafting against them.
That includes ghosts and ghost lords. Here again elven lifespan helps when meleeing mentioned undead.

I don't much care about improved early game survival because if a character dies at that stage, I will simply roll another one, I don't get discouraged.
Hell knows I've had enough invisible stalkers and ogre mages generated in PC:5, killing very promising characters where even 25 toughness would not have saved them.
I still maintain that elves are better for most classes than for example dwarves, even if it's not a very objective opinion.
Working on improving elven toughness and strength even after ToEF is a mini-game of its own and I enjoy it.
By the way, Tyrion Lannister is my favorite character from the "Song of Ice and Fire" so it's not that I dislike the small folks, it's just that I love following the struggles of beautiful elven females even more, being a an old fan of Tolkien's
I just don't find it interesting to follow dwarves or role play them.

[JellySlayer]

I believe that regeneration matters more than actual toughness and HP.
I have lost plenty of chars with lots of HP and To in the early game because I could not regenerate lost HP - no healing, no candle.

Oh, I definitely agree that regeneration makes a huge difference as well. Rings of regeneration are, IMHO, actually a pretty solid early-game wish, probably on par with other standard choices like 7lbs or RDSM. Yeah, they're not that uncommon overall, but they're pretty high DL so it's fairly rare you so them before Casino, and recovering 2 HP per turn instead of 2 HP per 20 turns makes a huge difference.

[divij]

i believe hp is like an eligibility criterion and hp regen is an excellence criterion...if you hp is around 150, so that no1 except titans and moloch can one-shot you, getting more ho is not a major issue...instead making sure that you have fullish hp is far more important...also, i do think that age is a significant issue with races with low age....however, that mini-game you described abv can be looked at as getting potions of longevity / youth!