Finishing ADOM... unspoiled?

[_Ln_]

Didn't Darren failed an unspoiled ultra for not wielding the ToTRR at AD's death?

[mjz15]

So I guess it's possible, it just seems such a masochistic thing to do... you reach mana temple, you meet Nuurag Vaarn, he casts death ray, BOOM, you're dead, try again, pal.
It often feels masochistic to me, spoiled as I am... I suppose the satisfaction of finishing unspoiled would be much much greater. As for me, I think I got no further than the big room unspoiled, so to those who DID manage to finish unspoiled: my deepest respect and sympathy for putting up with this game's cruel, cruel ways go out to you.

[mjkittredge]

I'd say you can't really enjoy the game fully being unspoiled, there are too many useful tricks techniques you'd never think to do on your own that make life so much easier or allow you to survive. Being unspoiled means playing in a very sub-optimal manner, dying early and often, not understanding what is happening or why or what you can do about it. There isn't some great in game tutorial to clue you in, beyond the manual, that while helpful leaves a lot to be desired.

[Dlightfull]

I'd say you can't really enjoy the game fully being unspoiled, there are too many useful tricks techniques you'd never think to do on your own that make life so much easier or allow you to survive. Being unspoiled means playing in a very sub-optimal manner, dying early and often, not understanding what is happening or why or what you can do about it. There isn't some great in game tutorial to clue you in, beyond the manual, that while helpful leaves a lot to be desired.

i think that most of the tricks were actually figured out by players. It's difficult to figure everything out on your own but i'm pretty sure it's doable.

[mjkittredge]

For some it is. For others it's endless frustration. Makes me think of the puzzles in those Legend Of Zelda games. You could get stuck in some areas for a long time until finally breaking down and consulting a guide. I'd rather figure out on my own, but there comes a point where you realize you're just not getting it and want to move on. Cheating by looking at guides is a last resort. Glad it's available though

[Dlightfull]

For some it is. For others it's endless frustration. Makes me think of the puzzles in those Legend Of Zelda games. You could get stuck in some areas for a long time until finally breaking down and consulting a guide. I'd rather figure out on my own, but there comes a point where you realize you're just not getting it and want to move on. Cheating by looking at guides is a last resort. Glad it's available though

I've completed a couple of quest games without guides. Not the most difficult ones though. When i got stuck, i just let the game for a couple of days and the solution would come to me by itself, after i've relaxed enough. When my brain is on fire, i usually do mistakes.

[auricbond]

I've often wondered how the game would have been without spoilers. I had a lot less game-sense when I first discovered ADOM in my early teens. It took me ages to win and I was heavily spoiled when I finally did. I also went through a save-scumming phase, I just couldn't handle the difficulty, and I learned a lot from doing that (since the 'error' part of the trial&error was less punishing) but my skill shot up once I kicked the habit... and I've heard a lot of people say that. I think both playstyles can teach you things and honestly, I think making it a 'legit' thing with a lowered score in the deluxe version is a good thing.

I think you'd have to be very patient and meticulous, and have a good memory or library of notes, to pull off a victory unspoiled.

Herb patterns -> I don't farm herbs (spoiled or not), who cares.

Well, morgia is useful when playing frail characters. It's a complete lottery fighting the chaos wyrm if you're below a certain hp, as insta-death could happen at any turn.

So I guess it's possible, it just seems such a masochistic thing to do... you reach mana temple, you meet Nuurag Vaarn, he casts death ray, BOOM, you're dead, try again, pal.
It often feels masochistic to me, spoiled as I am... I suppose the satisfaction of finishing unspoiled would be much much greater. As for me, I think I got no further than the big room unspoiled, so to those who DID manage to finish unspoiled: my deepest respect and sympathy for putting up with this game's cruel, cruel ways go out to you.

You mean sadistic.

I'd say you can't really enjoy the game fully being unspoiled, there are too many useful tricks techniques you'd never think to do on your own that make life so much easier or allow you to survive. Being unspoiled means playing in a very sub-optimal manner, dying early and often, not understanding what is happening or why or what you can do about it. There isn't some great in game tutorial to clue you in, beyond the manual, that while helpful leaves a lot to be desired.

Agreed.

[Soirana]

In general I do agree on old RPG being tougher, but well again these usually allow saves.

From my point of view playing unspoiled kind of promotes savescumming if not for winning than at least to have some sort of test rabbit character. Well, at least I played with test chars and one clean one.

Another thing I do recall was one of test chars being saved with 10+ fortune cookies and me reloading save to eat them in hope for hints. Well, again between writing cookies and mad ministrel songs and observations I reached point there was more fun and sane just tor ead someone's guide. Although I guess technical point of quitting unspoiled was Ki-Rin, none of my test chars had ever seen one to know about death ray...

[mjz15]

You mean sadistic.

Sadistic from RNG's point of view. Masochistic from the player's point of view

[blunk]

I played unspoiled in the 90s and it was excrutiatingly difficult.

The earlier versions were more harsh with weather effects (read more rain). I was probably meleeing karmic stuff also ...
Just the thing that altars were important and to figure out how they work ... try playing the game without using altars, I did
For some reason (maybe friend) I knew about quests in Terinyo but no others. Just the thing that there are several and some get obsolete when you choose another, ie I always went for healing quest and puppy quest.
Corpse effects, yeah right, you'll get an immense list, add to that they don't always stick, differ from status etc I tried a bit but after too much negatives instead went to not eating corpses which meant I often starved to death instead....

Edit:
But I was probably pretty bad at muds, old school adventures games and such not beeing able to figure out things.
I now have a much better idea of mechanics to figure out how the creators thinks and would do way better in a similar game, maybe if I played nethack or something again (no I won't) ....
But to finish a game like this, still no way I'd be able to.