You're playing the wrong race

[grobblewobble]

Do troll duelists work? Duelists seem much more level-dependent than non-unarmed monks, so the slow leveling seems like it would be kind of lame.

Yes, troll might be a little boring. You sacrifice late game power in return for top-notch early game survival. But duelists are not as level-dependent as they might seem at first sight. The only really essential class powers are level 6 (energy reduction) and level 12 (DV bonus). Even trolls can reach level 12 relatively easily.

After that, the next class powers are okay but not game changing, until at level 40 (grandmaster everything) you break the game. Sadly, the game is already over at level 40, even for gnomes.

edit: trolls are the best pick when you want to grab the Golden Gladius straight away at the start of the game. This is a nice strategy for duelists, as the golden gladius is the best guaranteed early game one-handed weapon.

[Blasphemous]

I have to disagree on a couple points, mostly about GEs not given enough credit

I have played every class as gray elf, some of them multiple times (tens...).
I think gray elves whenever their class allows them to start with elven chain mail, make up considerably for low toughness.
High dexterity enable more flexible tactics settings early on, for greater benefit.

I think GE is a top choice for assassin:
- it's not unheard of to start with 10 PV (elven chain mail + other gear)
- stealth is leveled up very fast, coupled with FW and backstabbing, it activates the one-hit wonder at level 12
- high learning goes very well with the amazing skillset, to quickly level up all the nice skills
- high dexterity also helps with archery and assassins are arguably the second best archery class (behind, obviously, archers)
- predominantly melee class that as GE doesn't have to worry about aging but some people put less emphasis on resistance to age

In general, gray/high elves bestow the above advantages to many classes.
They make pretty good healers too, though initial PV might be a problem, until your healing & first aid is at 100.

I actually find drakes annoying. They learn spells poorly and I tend to spellcast to some extent with every class.
They age fast. ToEF is annoying, even if not difficult. They can't reliably resist fire in places like greater red dragon vaults.
Acid spit is overrated IMHO. It's a crude solution to a simple problem. Use coward, combination of DV, dex and speed and you won't need to worry.

Ratlings make quite decent duelists. I played the class with several races and ratlings were my favorite, mostly due to high initial toughness, which simplifies many things.
Detect items status is extremely helpful as duelists are on a constant search for better weapons and need to maintain a healthy weight of carried items.
You often need to drop stuff you'd normally take with you, because it makes you burdened or strained and that's a big no-no for duelists.
With detect item status you can equip-id most of the stuff and drop the junk.
My ratling duelist crowned with executor actually cleared a GUV and only got aged twice, for a total of ~12 years.
For somewhat similar reasons GEs make good duelists because they contribute their 20+ Dx to the already decent DV.

I have won countless times with a GE mindcrafter though I have to agree, they're not the best choice for this class.
I did it mostly as roleplaying, but then again, I seem to exclusively play with elves (mostly gray, sometimes dark) so that's a moot point.

One thing I did not see given due consideration in the original post was starting gear.
It's a live or die situation, with some races really bestowing a tremendous starting boost.
Elven chain mail is one of the most amazing things you can start a game with.
Many elven classes start with several other items - boots, gloves, caps, cloaks... they can all carry extra PV and just 1-2 points above the 5 PV of elven chain mail makes early game a walk in the park, even with a fragile elf.

Another thing I did not see here covered in sufficient detail was how various races work out in the mid-to-late game.
Elves tend to shine in every respect because attribute-wise, they need only work on strength and toughness, which often reaches ~20 by the time I'm level 16-20, thanks to potions of potentials.
Those potions now increase the potentials by 3 points when blessed, which is a great thing that makes up for the lack of natural training to surpass the inborn low potentials.
Gray elves especially benefit from those because their only weak attributes are strength and toughness and when you inevitably find means to increase those, you suddenly discover you don't have to worry about any of the other attributes - they're all 20-25
Drakes still fail at learning at that point, dwarves still fail in the mana and dexterity departments, orcs are still poor casters, trolls still only have the advantage of St and To but suck at everything else.
Of all races, gray and high elves make up for all of their shortcomings by the end of mid game.

Still, I suspect I'm biased because as a long-time fan of elves and Tolkien's world, I just can't imagine playing a dwarf, an orc or a troll, save for a one-time shot that I only enjoy halfheartedly.

One last thing I found lacking in the original post was how each race fits to a fast/slow playstyle.
People that play fast and close the gate in less than ~70k turns will find the drake/troll/dwarf advantages more alluring because they offer better performance out-of-the-box.
Elves on the other hand require more careful play and more time, hence people like me, who close the gate no earlier than 100k turns mark, enjoy the elven races more because after some extra effort is put, they outshine any other race.

[_Ln_]

Maximizing the chances to win != playing Mist Elves at all. Maximizing the chances to win == not playing Mist Elves at all. Wizards and Necromancers are going to have a really bad time with traps. Finally, Mist Elven Farmers are boss, but they are only good for spenseweed, as their Wi and To potential are down below.

You might want to consider Mist Elven Healers. I distinctly remember having fun with them before the HP buff.

[sweetnothing]

Maximizing the chances to win != playing Mist Elves at all.

You probably mean "Maximizing the changes to win = not playing Mist Elves at all" which is true. I don't know how even being a farmer can help with luck of HP. When I was playing mist elf merchants, First aid skill was enough. And you start with toughness near the potential anyway.

Maybe it is convenient for carrying a lot of junk or what? No idea.

[_Ln_]

You probably mean "Maximizing the changes to win = not playing Mist Elves at all" which is true. I don't know how even being a farmer can help with luck of HP. When I was playing mist elf merchants, First aid skill was enough. And you start with toughness near the potential anyway.

Maybe it is convenient for carrying a lot of junk or what? No idea.

Yeah, my bad.
I occasionally enjoy playing Mist Elves for their half melee reduction and epic PP, but they are incredibly annoying. The iron damage is a cool gimmick early on, but is pretty silly for endgame characters for a couple of reasons:
1) Constant message spam (can be filtered out but this method is prone to kick you in the butt later on).
2) Inability to w5 even if you want to ignore damage/can reduce it with regeneration.

Personally I would love to see them building up immunity to iron damage over time (read experience) so that high-level characters are completely unaffected. I just want to have fun at the point where I basically won the game.

[sweetnothing]

There was a bug regarding that message spam and it is fixed. Did not check it yet, it would be good if it works in the recent version. Do not plan to do it in near future though, I'm fed up with mist elves for now.

[Carter]

Mist Elf is anything but fun to play TBH.

it makes your 1/10 shot of getting to the toef more like 1/100 unless you scum excessively.

[sweetnothing]

Maybe scumming is not necessary. The problem is that you should be very concentrated and careful.

[AlterAsc]

And preferably be a psychic/hacker to know when next stone trap can oneshot you.
Personally i only play MEs as CKs. That one class where early game survival is easy.

On elves tending to shine after you drink ton of potions to fix their To - after sufficient amount of time and potions every race will shine.

[JellySlayer]

One thing I did not see given due consideration in the original post was starting gear.
It's a live or die situation, with some races really bestowing a tremendous starting boost.
Elven chain mail is one of the most amazing things you can start a game with.
Many elven classes start with several other items - boots, gloves, caps, cloaks... they can all carry extra PV and just 1-2 points above the 5 PV of elven chain mail makes early game a walk in the park, even with a fragile elf.

I did count starting gear. Otherwise GE would have ended up much worse. The thing is, even including elven chain, there are usually a handful of other races that still end up with better starting PV and pretty much all of the others have starting To. Having 5 PV and 10 To is not nearly so good as having 3 PV and 20 To.

Another thing I did not see here covered in sufficient detail was how various races work out in the mid-to-late game.

Sure, but that's because mid-to-endgame counts for very little. Every character is going to have decent stats, maxed skills, huge damage, etc. Exactly what you end up with will depend on the RNG and your playstyle more than anything else. But most characters who make it passed the ToEF win the game, regardless of race and class.

Elves tend to shine in every respect because attribute-wise, they need only work on strength and toughness, which often reaches ~20 by the time I'm level 16-20, thanks to potions of potentials.

Yeah, but 20 St and To is still garbarge. A level 1 orc who was beaten by his parents starts with that. 20 St still means you probably need a girdle of carrying or take Porter/etc. talents to avoid being burdened with a modest endgame inventory.

Drakes still fail at learning at that point, dwarves still fail in the mana and dexterity departments, orcs are still poor casters, trolls still only have the advantage of St and To but suck at everything else.
Of all races, gray and high elves make up for all of their shortcomings by the end of mid game.

I've given elves good scores for casters already. For non-casters, of the stats you mention here, only Dx matters, and that is trainable fairly easily.

Still, I suspect I'm biased because as a long-time fan of elves and Tolkien's world, I just can't imagine playing a dwarf, an orc or a troll, save for a one-time shot that I only enjoy halfheartedly.

And if you love roleplaying, then by all means. Have fun. As I said at the top of the thread, my concern is about winning. And non-caster elves generally suck at that compared to other races.

One last thing I found lacking in the original post was how each race fits to a fast/slow playstyle.
People that play fast and close the gate in less than ~70k turns will find the drake/troll/dwarf advantages more alluring because they offer better performance out-of-the-box.
Elves on the other hand require more careful play and more time, hence people like me, who close the gate no earlier than 100k turns mark, enjoy the elven races more because after some extra effort is put, they outshine any other race.

In other words, elves are weaker. They need more grinding and effort to get the same results as races that are easier to win with. That's kind of my point.