You're playing the wrong race

**JellySlayer** · 08-24-2015, 11:42 PM

This thread is borne out of a couple of discussions that I've had in other threads about the different races in ADOM and their relative merits. Rather than derail other threads with my racist ranting, I thought I'd just make a single thread to deal with the topic.

Okay, for starters, there are a number of different things that a given race combines with your class to add to your character. In particular, you have racial skills, starting stats, starting equipment, lifespan, regeneration rates, shopkeeper prices, deity favored items, leveling rate, alignment special stuff (e.g. acid spit). Most of these overlap with class, but race usually has at least a big of effect as class. My feeling is that people, in general, place too much emphasis on skills and, for a certain contingent of people, lifespan, rather than some other factors that are, IMHO, much more important. While using your race to pick up some skills that your class is lacking, choosing this to the exclusion of these other factors can lead to some poor R/C combinations. Dwarves in particular tend to be underrated for their lack of great skills, despite their many other strengths, while dark elves tend to be overrated because they give good skills, despite their many other weaknesses.

My general philosophy is that the "best" race for a given class is the one that maximizes your chance of winning. If you are playing random characters, or are roleplaying, or are choosing particular combinations to challenge yourself, or just hate short people for some reason, that's great. Have fun. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what is optimal for winning the game.

For the record, here are the top 3 best racial choices for every class (I'm also going to treat HE and GE as the same race... the only real difference is starting alignment, which is a very minor effect):

The breakdown is basically:
Best overall: Drakes. They're especially good for the weaker classes (eg. mindcrafters) that don't really have much going for them in the early game. Drake's high toughness + acid spit + extra food helps propel these guys through the early game, and drakeling's usually bad starting gear doesn't really matter because these classes have bad starting gear anyway. Drakes don't make the best casters due to Low Le and Ma, but they're a top 3 pick for just about every other class.
Runner up: Hurthlings. Hurthlings have a great skillset and good stats, they level quickly and get an extra talent to hit Heir gifts for classes like thieves and bards or for extra missile power/speed/earlier TH for other classes. Like Drakelings, they play best on classes with relatively poor starts normally, being able to take advantage of early missiles and decent to get them through the early game. They aren't the best for the really powerful melee classes or the caster classes, but they are great for almost all of the others. Dwarves round out the top three. They don't have the best skillset, but they make decent casters thanks to high Le, and typically have the best starting gear of any race, which, combined with high To, makes them absolute tanks. For the people who really care about lifespan, Dwarf is the best compromise between lifespan and durability. GE/HE are generally the top caster choice, but are outperformed across the board for basically every other class.

The worst race is, of course, Ratling, which don't seem to play well at anything. Yes, detect item status is nice, and their toughness is decent, but their skillset is otherwise really marginal, their equipment is average-to-poor, their stats are average, and their lifespan is pretty short. Humans are only slightly better. I like them for druids, and I think that they're actually an underrated choice for barbarians, having the best non-heir starting weapon of any R/C, and a starting luck bonus. Other than those, they're really too average to be outstanding at anything. Most of the other races have a few classes that they're decent at, but either have some glaring flaw that makes them terrible at others (eg. troll leveling, mist elf HP) or are just too mediocre across the board to really be that great (gnomes).

Bottom line: With few exceptions, don't play humans, rats, mist elves or gnomes if you want to win games. Play drakelings, hurthlings, and dwarves if you do. Play GE if you like casters, but you knew that already.

**blunk** · 08-25-2015, 12:52 AM

My view as someone who prefers to play semi or noncasters, mainly as random race (and rerolling troll/mistelf).
I value find weakness VERY high (darkelf/orc), while high learning is certainly nice it can be boosted later.
To contradict what I just wrote I quite like humans for the unusual combo of high learning+food preservation.
Drakelings are just awesome.
I probably haven't played enough dwarf ("makes a note of that").

I have a problem with the weak races that have crappy gear, elves are np when they get elven chain.
I rarely have any success with Ratlings, hurthlings, gnomes and elves in clothing. (recent ratling barb was an exception so is my current human bard).
In the case of hurthling it also comes with a low strength, however archery is not to be underestimated.
Gnomes get a bit messy with the places I want to be at certain lvls during midgame, otoh gnomes come to think of it are probably best for extra precrowns thanks to fast lvls.
One reason is that I prefer going smc/ud first which isn't very forgiving on low pv starts.

Dwarves have a very nice early statline but the racial skills are not good.
(should probably play a dwarf caster in the near future)

**Lasher** · 08-25-2015, 12:58 AM

Hi Jelly! I like your list.

I have two questions. What makes humans good druids?

And, what makes Trolls good Weaponsmiths? I thought Weaponsmiths really needed their class powesr, and that trolls were bad choices cause weak guys get a huge bonus to strength to carry around anvils.

I was actually planning on a Troll Weaponsmith today but stopped cause I thought it would be a bad idea.

**JellySlayer** · 08-25-2015, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Lasher

Hi Jelly! I like your list.

I have two questions. What makes humans good druids?

Couple things. Humans have extra skill increases and high Le, which is helpful to compensate for the fact that druids have terrible skill dice for almost every skill--most racial skills are basically impossible for druids to learn except for the ones that increase really easily. Food preservation is always nice to have, though, it is one of the ones that increases pretty fast and is useful even at a score of 60. Humans actually have the best starting gear for druids: Basically every race is the same, except humans get an extra spellbook. Druids are kind of marginal casters to start with (terrible dice on concentration and literacy), so being something a bit tougher than an elf is nice. I'm not 100% sure that they're the best choice, but I think it's solid, and certainly the best match for human.

And, what makes Trolls good Weaponsmiths? I thought Weaponsmiths really needed their class powesr, and that trolls were bad choices cause weak guys get a huge bonus to strength to carry around anvils.

I was actually planning on a Troll Weaponsmith today but stopped cause I thought it would be a bad idea.

Weaponsmiths really only need level 6 class power to do much smithing (though getting up to 12 is better). Troll smiths have huge St and To, so you can carry a tonne of extra gear around for smelting, and are also pretty powerful right out of the gate even if you never find a forge. They also have mining and gemology if you want to smith higher metal stuff and get some free gems. The way I play smiths is to try to get to a forge as early as possible with as much junk iron as a I can carry to smelt, which normally means a UD run. Trolls are strong enough to pull this type of thing off even without Healing, whereas most other races aren't.

Hurthlings (and elves) do get a very nice St bonus for playing as a weaponsmith (and hurthlings are my #2 choice), it's true. Their St still isn't stellar though--they have like 17 St instead of 10 maybe, which is still not great for carrying around really big piles of gear.

**Carter** · 08-25-2015, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

The worst race is, of course, Ratling, which don't seem to play well at anything. Yes, detect item status is nice, and their toughness is decent, but their skillset is otherwise really marginal, their equipment is average-to-poor, their stats are average, and their lifespan is pretty short. Humans are only slightly better. I like them for druids, and I think that they're actually an underrated choice for barbarians, having the best non-heir starting weapon of any R/C, and a starting luck bonus. Other than those, they're really too average to be outstanding at anything. Most of the other races have a few classes that they're decent at, but either have some glaring flaw that makes them terrible at others (eg. troll leveling, mist elf HP) or are just too mediocre across the board to really be that great (gnomes).

Bottom line: With few exceptions, don't play humans, rats, mist elves or gnomes if you want to win games. Play drakelings, hurthlings, and dwarves if you do. Play GE if you like casters, but you knew that already.

I'll take you up on Ratlings, i actually think they are better than Humans because they tend to have very high potential on WI/TO which means with Herbs, you can train them up easily.

Humans i find just plain terrible.

FWIW i think gnomes are better than GE for casting. The mana differences are negligible, you get better stats (even learning is ok) and level quicker which hugely helps spellcasting.

**grobblewobble** · 08-25-2015, 05:32 AM

Haha, flameworthy thread title, excellent.

For chaos knights, you´ll love hurthlings. Chaos knights start with very heavy equipment, just like weaponsmiths, so your starting strength will be good, taking away the main drawback. Drakeling is also great (you might already get spit as a starting corruption but that isn't nearly garantueed; chaos knights benefit greatly from food preservation and high regen), as well as troll because you get extreme starting stats, and again, food pres + regen.

Duelists play almost the same as monks and I would recommend the same three races.

Questions:

1. I almost never played rangers, why gray elf?
2. Why orc over drakeling for weaponsmith? Drake adds both food pres and alertness, smiths already have fw?

**JellySlayer** · 08-25-2015, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

Duelists play almost the same as monks and I would recommend the same three races.

Do troll duelists work? Duelists seem much more level-dependent than non-unarmed monks, so the slow leveling seems like it would be kind of lame. I guess on the plus side, hitting level 12 later means you can get a pretty high rank out of your preferred weapon.

1. I almost never played rangers, why gray elf?

Mostly on starting equipment. Starts with elven chain, bow and arrows. Gives Stealth, which I am always frustrated by rangers not having it to start with. In hindsight, Troll Ranger might actually be a better 3rd choice though... very powerful combination and Rangers have terrible class powers so you aren't missing much there. I actually really like playing Drakeling rangers. I don't know that they're a top pick, but they start with like 30 scurgari, so it's something neat and unusual to play.

2. Why orc over drakeling for weaponsmith? Drake adds both food pres and alertness, smiths already have fw?

Orc weaponsmith has an average starting PV of around 8; Drakes have starting PV of 1-2. Orcs have modestly better St and To, which are very important for this class, plus Mining, which is very helpful if you want to smith higher metal gear. Drake is a good choice too, certainly.

**Mobius** · 08-25-2015, 06:29 AM

I ran a Ratling Duelist with ease, victory and all. Worth trying out.

**grobblewobble** · 08-25-2015, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by JellySlayer

Do troll duelists work? Duelists seem much more level-dependent than non-unarmed monks, so the slow leveling seems like it would be kind of lame.

Yes, troll might be a little boring. You sacrifice late game power in return for top-notch early game survival. But duelists are not as level-dependent as they might seem at first sight. The only really essential class powers are level 6 (energy reduction) and level 12 (DV bonus). Even trolls can reach level 12 relatively easily.

After that, the next class powers are okay but not game changing, until at level 40 (grandmaster everything) you break the game. Sadly, the game is already over at level 40, even for gnomes.

edit: trolls are the best pick when you want to grab the Golden Gladius straight away at the start of the game. This is a nice strategy for duelists, as the golden gladius is the best guaranteed early game one-handed weapon.

**Blasphemous** · 08-25-2015, 09:14 AM

I have to disagree on a couple points, mostly about GEs not given enough credit

I have played every class as gray elf, some of them multiple times (tens...).
I think gray elves whenever their class allows them to start with elven chain mail, make up considerably for low toughness.
High dexterity enable more flexible tactics settings early on, for greater benefit.

I think GE is a top choice for assassin:
- it's not unheard of to start with 10 PV (elven chain mail + other gear)
- stealth is leveled up very fast, coupled with FW and backstabbing, it activates the one-hit wonder at level 12
- high learning goes very well with the amazing skillset, to quickly level up all the nice skills
- high dexterity also helps with archery and assassins are arguably the second best archery class (behind, obviously, archers)
- predominantly melee class that as GE doesn't have to worry about aging but some people put less emphasis on resistance to age

In general, gray/high elves bestow the above advantages to many classes.
They make pretty good healers too, though initial PV might be a problem, until your healing & first aid is at 100.

I actually find drakes annoying. They learn spells poorly and I tend to spellcast to some extent with every class.
They age fast. ToEF is annoying, even if not difficult. They can't reliably resist fire in places like greater red dragon vaults.
Acid spit is overrated IMHO. It's a crude solution to a simple problem. Use coward, combination of DV, dex and speed and you won't need to worry.

Ratlings make quite decent duelists. I played the class with several races and ratlings were my favorite, mostly due to high initial toughness, which simplifies many things.
Detect items status is extremely helpful as duelists are on a constant search for better weapons and need to maintain a healthy weight of carried items.
You often need to drop stuff you'd normally take with you, because it makes you burdened or strained and that's a big no-no for duelists.
With detect item status you can equip-id most of the stuff and drop the junk.
My ratling duelist crowned with executor actually cleared a GUV and only got aged twice, for a total of ~12 years.
For somewhat similar reasons GEs make good duelists because they contribute their 20+ Dx to the already decent DV.

I have won countless times with a GE mindcrafter though I have to agree, they're not the best choice for this class.
I did it mostly as roleplaying, but then again, I seem to exclusively play with elves (mostly gray, sometimes dark) so that's a moot point.

One thing I did not see given due consideration in the original post was starting gear.
It's a live or die situation, with some races really bestowing a tremendous starting boost.
Elven chain mail is one of the most amazing things you can start a game with.
Many elven classes start with several other items - boots, gloves, caps, cloaks... they can all carry extra PV and just 1-2 points above the 5 PV of elven chain mail makes early game a walk in the park, even with a fragile elf.

Another thing I did not see here covered in sufficient detail was how various races work out in the mid-to-late game.
Elves tend to shine in every respect because attribute-wise, they need only work on strength and toughness, which often reaches ~20 by the time I'm level 16-20, thanks to potions of potentials.
Those potions now increase the potentials by 3 points when blessed, which is a great thing that makes up for the lack of natural training to surpass the inborn low potentials.
Gray elves especially benefit from those because their only weak attributes are strength and toughness and when you inevitably find means to increase those, you suddenly discover you don't have to worry about any of the other attributes - they're all 20-25
Drakes still fail at learning at that point, dwarves still fail in the mana and dexterity departments, orcs are still poor casters, trolls still only have the advantage of St and To but suck at everything else.
Of all races, gray and high elves make up for all of their shortcomings by the end of mid game.

Still, I suspect I'm biased because as a long-time fan of elves and Tolkien's world, I just can't imagine playing a dwarf, an orc or a troll, save for a one-time shot that I only enjoy halfheartedly.

One last thing I found lacking in the original post was how each race fits to a fast/slow playstyle.
People that play fast and close the gate in less than ~70k turns will find the drake/troll/dwarf advantages more alluring because they offer better performance out-of-the-box.
Elves on the other hand require more careful play and more time, hence people like me, who close the gate no earlier than 100k turns mark, enjoy the elven races more because after some extra effort is put, they outshine any other race.

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