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Thread: Late game still unchallenging

  1. #61
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    I have a suggestion: why not make teleportation take a few turns? In terms of convenience, it's the same (takes 1 action to cast) but in terms of an overpowered escape mechanic it becomes much weaker. 3-5 turns sounds pretty reasonable to me. You can still use it to get out of a sticky situation, but it takes *some* planning and/or risk.

    (Perhaps if the PC is interrupted, they can choose do a quick teleport which is short ranged and/or random (perhaps decreased accuracy around where PC chooses) depending on how long the tp has been channeled. I think the above mechanic is sufficient for balance purposes though)

    Teleportitis or teleportation via teleport traps will remain instant. I think that is acceptable given their unreliable nature (can no longer predictably create tp trap).
    Last edited by Burb; 09-14-2015 at 07:26 PM.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous View Post
    I recall _Ln_ and his threat room of quickling kings on the cavernous D:36 in CoC.
    He had a powerful char that was on his way to win an ultra victory but it so happened he did not have any means of teleportation at the time.
    The quicks shredded him to pieces.
    In my mind this is actually FANTASTIC! This is exactly what I am referring to. No teleport would teach players to deal with situations like this. Actually in the game that I am referring to I had a tension room of quickling queens around COC 30-35 (I am not making this stuff up, I can generate a kill log if someone dares to say that I made it up on the fly). They actually suprised me about how dangerous they are since it has been a while since I played before.... And what did I do? Yes... I teleported and ice balled s...t out of them. Lazyness in the purest form. How I could have dealt with them without teleport? You will probably ask.... let me think.... hmm.... I don't know, maybe something as trivial as wand of door creation? I don't know... maybe I would have started using those scrolls/wands of monster detection finally when I got tension room message? I don't know .... maybe I would finally consider using companions? I don't know... maybe I would start thinking again instead of going on auto-pilot (teleport, Ice ball, teleport away, heal, rinse and repeat....)
    Last edited by Kordianus; 09-14-2015 at 07:38 PM.

  3. #63
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    Once you propose the solution "Why not just not use it?" you're proposing a self-handicapping game. Nothing wrong with that--I do it in most modern games that are dumbed down (for instance, in the Tomb Raider reboot, I made an arbitrary rule at the start of my 1st playthrough that I had to headshot every single enemy in the game, and it still wasn't particularly difficult).

    But given the choice I like to do everything in my power to maximize my chances--and still have fun. I don't want to have to manage my own fun, that's the dev's-- read: "dungeon master's"-- job.

  4. #64
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    How I could have dealt with them without teleport? You will probably ask.... let me think.... hmm.... I don't know, maybe something as trivial as wand of door creation? I don't know... maybe I would have started using those scrolls/wands of monster detection finally when I got tension room message? I don't know .... maybe I would finally consider using companions? I don't know... maybe I would start thinking again instead of going on auto-pilot.
    You have a fair point here. I don't want to get too involved with the discussion on either side before i have more time to read everyone's posts, but I never use 90% of these "utility" items... I never try to creatively set up traps with trap creation (only ever used them for tp traps for dungeon traversal before), I never ever use monster detection, it's been forever since I bothered with door creation, familiar summoning is strong but also never used bc companions are a pain to deal with.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by auricbond View Post
    Once you propose the solution "Why not just not use it?" you're proposing a self-handicapping game. Nothing wrong with that--I do it in most modern games that are dumbed down (for instance, in the Tomb Raider reboot, I made an arbitrary rule at the start of my 1st playthrough that I had to headshot every single enemy in the game, and it still wasn't particularly difficult).

    But given the choice I like to do everything in my power to maximize my chances--and still have fun. I don't want to have to manage my own fun, that's the dev's-- read: "dungeon master's"-- job.
    Amen! That's exactly my point. I hate self imposed limitations as well. That's dungeon master's job. In the end I would have to end up with a dozen artificial limitations and start calling it "kordi's man" or something equally dumb.

    And again... I am not saying TP is the problem. That's not the point. The point is that end game is easy and IMO nerfing teleportation which is the ultimate problem solver is a quick way to do introduce some unpredictability. I do recognize that there are many more things that cause that ADOM gets easier with each release but these are much more difficult to balance out.
    - potions of extra/ultra healing should be nerfed
    - orb of water should give much more severe corruption effect
    - prayers should be more unpredictable... i.e. having a chance to diety simply ignore you... after all you it's your *god* it can do whatever it wants.
    - corruption rate should be probably more severe now, since corruption curing is so much easier these days. As a side effect of easy access to curing corruption the player can easily pick and choose corruptions that empower the character instead of having to learn to deal with unfavorable ones.
    I could go on on about it..... and people will then tell me "don't use potions of ultra healing, don't use scrolls of chaos resistance, don't use prayers, don't use water orb"... load of bull...

    Overall I see that many people like this feeling "oh I am past level 20 so now I can finish the game in peace" so that's why my points do not find understanding.
    Last edited by Kordianus; 09-14-2015 at 07:56 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kordianus View Post
    Amen! That's exactly my point. I hate self imposed limitations as well. That's dungeon master's job. In the end I would have to end up with a dozen artificial limitations and start calling it "kordi's man" or something equally dumb.

    And again... I am not saying TP is the problem. That's not the point. The point is that end game is easy and IMO nerfing teleportation which is the ultimate problem solver is a quick way to do introduce some unpredictability. I do recognize that there are many more things that cause that ADOM gets easier with each release but these are much more difficult to balance out.
    - potions of extra/ultra healing should be nerfed
    - orb of water should give much more severe corruption effect
    - prayers should be more unpredictable... i.e. having a chance to diety simply ignore you... after all you it's your *god* it can do whatever it wants.
    - corruption rate should be probably more severe now, since corruption curing is so much easier these days. As a side effect of easy access to curing corruption the player can easily pick and choose corruptions that empower the character instead of having to learn to deal with unfavorable ones.
    I could go on on about it..... and people will then tell me "don't use potions of ultra healing, don't use scrolls of chaos resistance, don't use prayers, don't use water orb"... load of bull...

    Overall I see that many people like this feeling "oh I am past level 20 so now I can finish the game in peace" so that's why my points do not find understanding.
    Don't misunderstand, I still can see the other side of the argument. There is a risk of catering too much to the heavily spoiled player. Trying to make it the right difficulty for everyone is a very difficult task, what with how many variables there are. What is difficulty in a roguelike anyway? It's pretty all-or-nothing, and if you make it too harsh it can seem punishingly unfair, particularly in the late game where you have more to lose. It's all about preparation, covering as many contingencies as you can, and/or taking a risk. The in-the-moment skill is really about staying alert. So really balancing the game rests on the edge of giving players what they need to 'strategically' cover certain circumstances, or depriving them of those things such that they get caught in something they really couldn't have avoided. There needs to be some measure of stability and security.

    We're also seeing quite diverse opinions about the state of the game probably because we have different race/class preferences and playstyles. I've seen a lot of statements made with authority that I've called BS on, statements about the worth of certain items or that X or Y is easy/difficult to come by, but it could be just a skewed perception due to making different choices. That makes discussing these things doubly difficult. It would probably be quite insightful if more people recorded footage of their play, we might be surprised by the number of little things we do differently.

    It could be that my boredom (and for me it's boredom, more than finding it too easy) with the late game is more down to having tapped out the game. I've been playing it off and on for 15 years, and I am heavily spoiled, it's not like I can level a complaint that it hasn't provided enough fun. It could be that finding the game too easy is a hint for me to move on?

    I'm still open minded to suggestions but, just considering my latest playthrough, none of the items you've listed as being problematic have been growing on trees, and they merely do what they were designed to do, to cover for certain eventualities.
    Last edited by auricbond; 09-14-2015 at 08:37 PM.

  7. #67
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    At least for me that's not the point. It took me four years untill I won my first ADOM run and I died countless times in the early, mid and late game. For me that was fun, but it also was enough. Further difficulty would definitely not be a good thing for new players, so I think that self-restrictions for us veterans would definitely be the better way to go. In the end we just spent a rediculous amount of time on the game and gathered an insane amount of knowledge untill we were able to win quite reliably, so I think that we just shouldn't be the measure.
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by auricbond View Post
    Don't misunderstand, I still can see the other side of the argument. There is a risk of catering too much to the heavily spoiled player. Trying to make it the right difficulty for everyone is a very difficult task, what with how many variables there are. What is difficulty in a roguelike anyway? It's pretty all-or-nothing, and if you make it too harsh it can seem punishingly unfair, particularly in the late game where you have more to lose. It's all about preparation, covering as many contingencies as you can, and/or taking a risk. The in-the-moment skill is really about staying alert. So really balancing the game rests on the edge of giving players what they need to 'strategically' cover certain circumstances, or depriving them of those things such that they get caught in something they really couldn't have avoided. There needs to be some measure of stability and security.
    What does not grow on trees? Prayers? Orb of water? Don't really get it...

    And the basic difference in opinion is about this part of your statement "or depriving them of those things such that they get caught in something they really couldn't have avoided". There are virtually NO THINGS THAT CANNOT BE AVOIDED. Like seriously. Maybe I am not imaginative but in ADOM virtually everything can get avoided. You died to an acid trap with your char on level 1? Tough luck man... you could have done a walk search until you knew that you have enough HP to survive such trap... heh... you could have even done your levelling in outlaw village before entering any dungeons to avoid such death. You found a monster stronger/faster than you in early game... I can give you at least a few ways how to deal with it including item dropping on the ground and deliberately allowing to get hit to drop your HPs for coward mode to kick in... etc. What I dislike really much are ultimate solutions that let you avoid any kind of problem. TP is such a solution. Quickling queen? Oh let's TP away... Gorgon and you have no pertification resistance? Oh let's TP away... Digging graves without DR resistance? Why not worst case you can TP away... You get surounded by karmic beings and have no spells? Oh well, let's TP away... Something scores critical in darkness?... Oh well, let's TP away?... You got blinded and something starts attacking you? Oh well... let's TP away.... etc. TP away to the rescue every single time...

    Oh wait... you got stunned.... no TP away.... time to pray...

    My idea of ADOM is that dying (regardless of how powerful char is) is the part of the learning process. I do not really mind losing level 50 char to some stupid BS, cause I know that next time I will not do the same stupid mistake. You know what is the most memorable death I have in all of my gameplays? There are actually two of them.
    1. While picking up my stash from the ground I kept holding A..... few second later my char is dead. Apparently this char had Alchemy and when it stopped picking up objects pressing A kept enabling Alchemy so I blown myself up with multiple explosions. Now I always pres B when picking up objects....
    2. This is my favorite... I will never forget it... I killed level 50 necromancer that had some 90 toughness (good times when undead corpses raised stats without limit).... This is a difficult task to accomplish. Imagine how overpowered I felt with this char. Walking around with immortality ..... yet, I missed the warning that strengh of atlas was waning and all my staff crushed me.... again... and again... and again..... Now imagine how cautious I am with this spell when I play now.
    Last edited by Kordianus; 09-14-2015 at 09:20 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kordianus View Post
    And the basic difference in opinion is about this part of your statement "or depriving them of those things such that they get caught in something they really couldn't have avoided". There are virtually NO THINGS THAT CANNOT BE AVOIDED. Like seriously. Maybe I am not imaginative but in ADOM virtually everything can get avoided.
    Surely this is a good thing, right? If the game generates a situation where it is literally impossible to win, to a significant extent that's a bug, not a feature.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer View Post
    Surely this is a good thing, right? If the game generates a situation where it is literally impossible to win, to a significant extent that's a bug, not a feature.
    And you see me complaining about this? I am complaining that to every difficult situation there is one common solution....

    BTW.
    Have you won with Doomed mindcrafter yet? I think that I will try it but would be more fun if I was first .

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