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Thread: Late game still unchallenging

  1. #1

    Default Late game still unchallenging

    Anyone who plays ADOM for a while probably found themselves in a situation where towards the end the game stops being challanging. The Char becomes so powerful that only carelessness can kill it. I know that there have been many efforts to fix it but IMO little has changed. Right now I am playing Mist Elven thief it is level 33 that I planned for ultraending. This can be considered as one of the most difficult combos to play with... yet still I found myself in this awkward spot that I lost interest to finish the game, since I do not see any challange in continuing. The char became overpowered. I made an effort to diagnose what is the reason behind it and here are my thoughts:

    1. Teleportation - This is single most significant culprit of late game boredom. Despite the effort to make it less potent, this is still the most OP spell in the game. This is like out of jail free card in most situations.
    Solution:
    - remove the guaranteed wand of teleportation from the guild of assassins cave
    - wands of teleportation should not be chargable with potions of booze (as an exception). Scrolls of charging, potions of mana etc. are fine. However, potions of booze should not work, since they are easily accessible and basically unlimited.
    - books of teleportation should be made even more rare and Khelly should not give you a book for the amulet
    - casting the spell should have some kind of adverse effect on you, simililarly to casting Wish. My suggestion is that it should drain your stats similarly to how casting from HP drains your stats.
    - items of teleportation should ignore "teleportation control" instrict.
    - give some monsters the ability to forbid your teleportation at all if they are present on the level.
    Basically, teleportation should become luxury not comodity.

    2. Decreased item drop rate - yup. You hear me right. RNG should be less favorable to you. This is a consequence of the game becoming longer. There are much more dungeons to explore these days. I.e. you have 6 random dungeons on the map recently added. As a result, if the char chooses to explore everything on the map before going deep into CoC this char will be just overloaded with items. I really mean overloaded. In the current game I decided I want to explore everything on the map. By the time I reached ToEF I was almost level 30 and have found 10 potions of gain attribute! Without any sort of grinding. I simply explored all the possible dungeons.You hear me right! 10 PoGA before even getting my first orb. This is just an example but this goes with all sorts of of items. I have some enormous stash of potions of ultra/extra healing, countless types of wands including wand of paralization, death, destruction and yeah... wand of wish. My equipment is so OP, that I am it is not even funny: robes of resistance, protector, adamantium rapier of devastation, seven league boots, celestrix, rings of regenerations etc.

    Some might say that I had lucky roll with RNG... the problem is that it seems that I have this kind of lucky roll every time I play. Last time I played some two years ago my Mist Elven thief got his hands on skullcrusher (humanoid slayer). Combined with thief's level 25 class power this basically made the game broken. 70% of mosters were not even able to touch me in hand to hand combat... and the list goes on....

  2. #2
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    I agree that post TOEF/casino can be boring, but I don't agree with the solutions. I run into far too many item droughts. It's down to the whims of the rng as to whether I end up with an OP character or not and taking away the few guarranteed things that compensate for that is a terrible idea, particularly, decreasing drop rate: if anything I'd like to see it increased as I've been agonizingly short of some much needed item on occasion (recently had a char with plenty of potions, but no water to be found in sight). Plus you seem to just assume that everyone ends up with a hybrid spellcaster. Unlimited potions of booze? Where? I haven't found this booze dispenser.

    *EDIT Just looked up the spoiler for this. Huh, that is pretty OP.

    It might be an issue with mist elves, given their high mana score they perhaps drop better items. My OCG victory mist elf duelist also acquired a huge heap of PoGA on top of the guarranteed ones.

    There are so many variables as to what goes into ending up with an OP character or not, that balancing it toward the luckiest end game characters is going to skew the game so that other characters end up having too hard of a time.

    Unfortunately without knowing the exact inner workings of the game engine I don't think we can make particularly informed suggestions that would fix every scenario. I do feel like it might be weighted though rather than being a purely random die roll.

    But to your original point: I do find the mid-to-late game the most boring part, whether or not I'm 'OP'. In fact in a recent character that was going pretty well, after defeating Keriax on day 60 and level 22 (mainly for the challenge) I simply quit. Not in frustration, I simply felt like I'd done it all before. My brain considers the game a 'solved problem'. I have no idea why the earlier half of the game isn't like that for me though, given I've experienced that part even more times. I'm not sure being too powerful is the issue for me. I do feel that the pace feels off after the fire wall. Perhaps it's the casino+casino shop and BDC scumming that does it...

    I think it might be interesting to see what effects capping base stats at 35 would have (higher with gear/potion boosts). That might prevent characters from getting too god-like...
    Last edited by auricbond; 09-12-2015 at 03:48 PM.

  3. #3

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    I do not know if this is mist elf thing or not... but I just find myself having too many items. You say you had no water in one of the games... that's excellent! That's the whole point. You should have scarce resources and feel the whole time that you are missing something. Only then the game is a challange. That's how the game works in the beginning. You start with nothing. You do not have even water... and this is why it is a challange. Towards the end of the game you consider stuff like the mentioned water like something obvious... that you SHOULD have it in unlimited quantities just because... and that's what is spoiling the fun. Same goes for scrolls of identify/uncoursing. Sources of healing etc.


    However, item drop rate is IMO secondary to teleportation. I consider teleportation as far greater problem than item drop rate. I cannot recall any other game to ADOM where you can as easily avoid enemies that you do now want to fight. Simply teleport away and problem solved. In vast majority of RPGs spells that allow you to do that cannot be accessed in combat mode.

    BTW. I have one more idea how to make teleport less OP. Make it not work if enemies are within 3 tiles of you.

  4. #4
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    I agree with teleportation being very powerful, but I don't like the idea of stat-draining punishment for using it. I like ADOM for it's diversity, punishing for tele you 'll remove some part of it from game, some cool tricks
    will be affected. Maybe some corruption penalty could be applied, but please no stat-drain.
    Item drop can be adjusted in current version on character creation screen. If you think current drop is too great you always can tune it down in exchange for better hi-score.

    ADOM after all is roguelike. If you became too good in it that it kills the fun, but you still want to play it, then you must try some challendges. Try winning doomed( JellySlayer way ) or make some restricted conditions for yourself or try challendge of the week for a change. There are many ways to make the life harder in ADOM, we don't need to apply Dwarf Fortress's 'Losing is fun' philosophy.

  5. #5

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    Teleport IMO is doing more bad than good. Imagine a playthrough without teleportation at all.... How it would change the way you approach certain monsters. I.e. you see a greater moloch. You would immediately run for your life, why? Or at least run to a location where you cannot get souranded. Cause if some other monster blocks the corridor from the other side you might not be able to survive the fight. That is exactly how you approach monsters early game before you have teleport. Cat lord and no teleport on his level is a great example of this. Once I enter cat lord level I weigh my every step. This is one of the very few places mid/late game where I excercise any caution at all.

    As for item drop rate... I have just started a gray elf mindcrafter. I am on level 11 with .... 18 PV (starting with 1 PV). I did no gridning whatsoever. I simply went to rescue carpenter and to the puppy cave. That's it. (not to mention I got AoLS already but that's another story). I really have a feeling that someone tempered with item drop rate in the latest versions of ADOM and something went wrong.
    Last edited by Kordianus; 09-12-2015 at 05:28 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kordianus View Post
    I do not know if this is mist elf thing or not... but I just find myself having too many items. You say you had no water in one of the games... that's excellent! That's the whole point. You should have scarce resources and feel the whole time that you are missing something. Only then the game is a challange. That's how the game works in the beginning. You start with nothing. You do not have even water... and this is why it is a challange. Towards the end of the game you consider stuff like the mentioned water like something obvious... that you SHOULD have it in unlimited quantities just because... and that's what is spoiling the fun. Same goes for scrolls of identify/uncoursing. Sources of healing etc.
    It's not a challenge so much as a lottery. The rng either throws what you need your way or it doesn't. Denying items just leads to more grinding. If I screw up an altar interaction and get my inventory nuked, guess what it leads to me doing? Not more challenge, that's for sure.

    However, item drop rate is IMO secondary to teleportation. I consider teleportation as far greater problem than item drop rate. I cannot recall any other game to ADOM where you can as easily avoid enemies that you do now want to fight. Simply teleport away and problem solved. In vast majority of RPGs spells that allow you to do that cannot be accessed in combat mode.

    BTW. I have one more idea how to make teleport less OP. Make it not work if enemies are within 3 tiles of you.
    I've always found the cost of teleportation quite prohibitive, if I even manage to learn it. When I can use it, it's mainly to speed things up that would otherwise be boring. Maybe if the lower coc levels were less of a chore to get through, people would engage those maps more instead of trying to skip through it. Everything is just a wall of hp with the level scaling.

    I'd like to see the lower coc be more interesting, perhaps have high dl 'dungeon features' that alter the maps around a particular theme or base it around a powerful monster when it gets generated, instead of having that werewolf king or emperor lich just be some random mob. Maybe powerful mobs could suppress teleport on the level.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by auricbond View Post
    It's not a challenge so much as a lottery. The rng either throws what you need your way or it doesn't. Denying items just leads to more grinding. If I screw up an altar interaction and get my inventory nuked, guess what it leads to me doing? Not more challenge, that's for sure.



    I've always found the cost of teleportation quite prohibitive, if I even manage to learn it. When I can use it, it's mainly to speed things up that would otherwise be boring. Maybe if the lower coc levels were less of a chore to get through, people would engage those maps more instead of trying to skip through it. Everything is just a wall of hp with the level scaling.

    I'd like to see the lower coc be more interesting, perhaps have high dl 'dungeon features' that alter the maps around a particular theme or base it around a powerful monster when it gets generated, instead of having that werewolf king or emperor lich just be some random mob. Maybe powerful mobs could suppress teleport on the level.
    Sorry not sure what you mean really... Screwing up altar interaction? Example makes no sense. This is within player's control... Not sure what you are trying to convey. You say that RNG either throws things at you or not.... I must be very lucky then since every game I seem to be overflowing with items mid game. Nowadays that is even more noticeable than in older versions of ADOM since there are more locations to explore. Game got longer as a result and it is obvious that with the same item drop rate the player will accumulate more items....

    As for teleportation cost, there is none. Usually around level 10-15 I am able to go for guaranteed wand of teleportation. Then I get my stash of potions of booze (I always kill beggars as my first kill and then I need 20 kills to get courage... go figure) and monsters stop being any kind of problem to me. Once I encounter something that I cannot deal with I simply teleport away. There's no fun in it.

    However, I think that giving the mentioned restriction to teleportation that the player would not be able to cast it if monsters are within 3 tiles would solve this issue.
    Last edited by Kordianus; 09-12-2015 at 05:53 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kordianus View Post
    Sorry not sure what you mean really... Screwing up altar interaction? Example makes no sense. This is within player's control... Not sure what you are trying to convey.
    The altar screw up could have been anything. Read: "If you have a lack of items, it doesn't mean the game got more challenging, it just means going back to grinding".

    You say that RNG either throws things at you or not.... I must be very lucky then since every game I seem to be overflowing with items mid game. Nowadays that is even more noticeable than in older versions of ADOM since there are more locations to explore. Game got longer as a result and it is obvious that with the same item drop rate the player will accumulate more items....

    As for teleportation cost, there is none. Usually around level 10-15 I am able to go for guaranteed wand of teleportation. Then I get my stash of potions of booze (I always kill beggars as my first kill and then I need 20 kills to get courage... go figure) and monsters stop being any kind of problem to me. Once I encounter something that I cannot deal with I simply teleport away. There's no fun in it.

    However, I think that giving the mentioned restriction to teleportation that the player would not be able to cast it if monsters are within 3 tiles would solve this issue.
    I've never done this beggar+booze+wand abuse. I was thinking of the cost of the teleportation spell, which scales with the danger level.

    Maybe teleportation wands should also require pp at a reduced cost?

  9. #9
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    I disagree.

    Most of the people I've won with can't teleport, and it isn't a big deal. Teleportation is a luxury, not required at all. If you have a guy who can teleport a lot, great! Enjoy it. Its fun to be powerful.

    As for item drops, I wouldn't change anything. Sometimes I start off so well and lose everything, sometimes I start off badly and do great. But I have been losing items a bit more as of late to traps, which is annoying. I think the balance there is good. I get decent stuff, lose usually one thing to the Dwarves Graveyard quest, another one or two to the Pyramid, and then one or two other things just going through the main dungeon. That's all stuff I expect. If my character is unlucky then they lose a lot more stuff to random traps, dragons, slugs, stuff like that.

    The way the game is now, if I really want to I can go explore random dungeons to try to get some gear. If I don't need to then I don't. But at least it is there if I need it. I remember many times I had to just randomly wander around the main dungeon hoping to find a wand of cold so I could do the High King, or a ring of Ice for the Fire Tower, or I just lost my good weapon and now there's no way I'm going further down until I find another nice one. That was terrible and not fun at all.

    I think if the end game is too easy, just make that harder. And it is harder than it used to be I think. There are more serious monsters than I remember, instead of just fighting random goblins late in the game. If enough people agree, it could probably be tweaked harder again. Right now I've found I'm still usually in the 30s level wise when I get to the end, which is still odd.

    I wouldn't mind another interesting level in the end game, like another Big Room maybe. But there's already the Casino, the Cat Lord, the Bunny Level (Not sure if that is supposed to be hard), and three temples. Maybe just making the levels after you go up the stairs instead of down kind of like the UD? That place always seems to have stuff going on.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by auricbond View Post
    The altar screw up could have been anything. Read: "If you have a lack of items, it doesn't mean the game got more challenging, it just means going back to grinding".



    I've never done this beggar+booze+wand abuse. I was thinking of the cost of the teleportation spell, which scales with the danger level.

    Maybe teleportation wands should also require pp at a reduced cost?
    Even without beggars player will always have a few scrolls of charging, potions of booze found randomly or potions of boost mana that will allow him to teleport in the critical situations (although beggar/booze abuse makes it too easy). This is what I dislike. That with wand of teleportation in you backpack you always have get out of jail free card. If you find a tough monster you simply teleport away and get on with your life. This is the problem and not the general availability of teleportation as means of skipping levels....


    BTW. Once you save Khelly and get the book from him it can be exploited by every char in the game. The only thing you need is wand of wonder, which you will find sooner or later as these are quite common. Some potions of booze are required as well. You cast spells from wand of wonder as long as you cast teleport (preferably more than once). You spare a few talents for good book caster and voila. You now can cast teleport from the book even with troll barbarian or with a mindcrafter. Most chars by mid game will have enough PP to cast teleport from the book using this strat.

    That's why I am suggesting to remove the guaranteed wand of teleport and remove the book as reward from Khelly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lasher View Post
    I disagree.

    Most of the people I've won with can't teleport, and it isn't a big deal. Teleportation is a luxury, not required at all. If you have a guy who can teleport a lot, great! Enjoy it. Its fun to be powerful.
    The thing is that every single char in the game can abuse teleport from very early on in the game because of the guaranteed sources of it.

    BTW. I really do not understand your logic here. You are saying that a/ you do not care about teleport cause most your chars are not able to use it and this is not a big deal b/ you oppose me suggesting to make teleport less accessible. You see the paradox?

    At the same time I disagree with you about making end game dungeons more packed with high level monsters. This will not cut it as long as teleport can be abused. If you find something difficult to fight agains... oh well... let's teleport and try next level. You see my point?
    Last edited by Kordianus; 09-12-2015 at 06:20 PM.

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