ADOM and complication

[gr3ybird]

I'm kind of curious if anyone else has made the connection between how infrequently RFE's are addressed and how over-complicated the mechanics of ADOM are. Recently, for instance, there was another RFE dealing with how to simplify reloading missile weapons in the face of the enormous number of different ammunition types there are. To be clear, the idea expressed in the RFE was definitely a good one, but I think it misses the larger problem we are facing.

To me, the problem is the excessive complication introduced by having so many ammo types, and by extension the excessive complication present in so many of the systems that make up the game. And the only real solution is just to remove a lot of that excessive complication.

Look, even if you really love having a zillion ammo types, you have to realize at some point that this kind of thing is what really hamstrings development. I think that as a general principle, if you are saying you love ADOM for all the obscure, convoluted, and dated features and mechanics of this type, what you are really also saying is that you are okay with development proceeding at a glacial pace.

To be clear, I am not saying that TB is should be able to implement RFE's any faster than he has been. It is amazing that he can go at the speed he has given the fact that there are probably hundreds and hundreds of lines of code to just implement missile variety *alone*.

I don't think we can just blame this on the steam release, either. Even in the best of situations, with all available resources directed towards the goal of adding features to the game, wading through the morass of superfluous features that this game has acquired would make implementing any new ones a nightmare. This game takes forever to improve because, indirectly, *that is what most people on these forums have asked for*. They refuse to give up any feature, no matter how infrequently it actually has relevance, even though taking out all the lines of code that allow for obscure features would no doubt speed development.

We have to simplify this game. In the case of missile management, *there have to be fewer types of missiles*. Otherwise nothing will ever get done.

[Tyrnyx]

If reducing is really the best option, which I wont debate since I don't really code and have no idea if this would create more work or less, here are some suggestions I'd think would improve missile play:

1. Remove all hand crossbows and related ammo (and make quicklings/etc shoot regular crossbows). No one uses them. They are pure sale fodder. I'm not big into role-play so they mean nothing to me.
2. Similarly, get rid of all throwing clubs. Tempted to included spears on that list too.
3. Remove half the modifiers and compensate by having modifiers even more rare. No balanced/delicate/griffon-feathered/unbalanced/weighted/winged/of hunting/of targetting
4. Make the +/- of missiles attacks a smaller range. Most melee items have something like +/- <= 3 on damage. A large range means lots of missiles groups i.e. like 6 different stacks of just plain rocks. A +/- of 1 would be fine. Or not having one at all would also work for me.
5. If we we're really serious about reducing the amount of missile types I'd make all missiles made of mithril (although this would ruin/alter woodcrafting) and get rid of type differences. Some might say this is a big buff but with natural missile destruction kept I don't think it would be that big of a deal. Perhaps a nice boon for the tower but whatever.

I'm not sure how much those changes would effect game-play since I practically never use missiles in the early game. Most games I only ever pull out the bow/crossbow/sling on D49 with additional minimal use on D50. Unless I get any of the overpowered returning missiles including the trident.

Once in a rare game though I do use slaying ammo. If I used it more I would be more successful at this game I'm sure. However with so many different types for each weapon the amount of proliferation is large. But removing it or trying to consolidate it would significantly alter game-play for many players. No elegant solutions come to mind.

What would you suggest?

[Elitist]

If we went towards simplifying the game, I think we'd be edging towards making it more like DCSS. I don't mind overcomplicated, I'm just not a fan of people(we know who you are) trying to constantly resist managing the chaos of inventory bloating. It doesn't do anything good for us.

[_Ln_]

Thomas already "implemented" the suggestion for normal arrows having 0 variation (wooden arrows - (+0, 1d6) etc.) back in pre21 -- http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1415

However, apparently, it only works for slaying ammo specifically. Relevant item dump from r59 endgame char:

Missiles ('/')
   bundle of 72 uncursed quarrels (+1, 2d6)                          [144s]
   bundle of 11 uncursed arrows of jelly slaying (+3, 2d4+3)          [22s]
   bundle of 12 uncursed mithril arrows (+0, 1d6+3)                   [24s]
   bundle of 10 blessed arrows (+0, 1d6)                              [20s]
   bundle of 13 uncursed quarrels of undead slaying (+3, 2d6+3)       [52s]
   bundle of 151 uncursed arrows (+0, 1d6)                           [302s]
   bundle of 24 uncursed arrows of undead slaying (+3, 2d4+3)         [48s]
   bundle of 6 uncursed arrows of dragon slaying (+3, 1d6+3)          [12s]
   bundle of 17 uncursed quarrels of construct slaying (+3, 2d6+3)    [68s]
   bundle of 16 blessed quarrels (+1, 2d6)                            [32s]
   bundle of 12 uncursed quarrels of dragon slaying (+3, 2d6+3)       [48s]
   bundle of 23 blessed arrows of giant slaying (+3, 1d10+3)          [46s]
   uncursed eternium quarrel of targeting (+7, 4d6+8)                  [1s]
   bundle of 2 uncursed eternium arrows (+4, 2d6+8)                    [2s]
   bundle of 10 blessed quarrels of undead slaying (+3, 2d6+3)        [40s]
   bundle of 21 uncursed quarrels of humanoid slaying (+3, 2d6+3)     [84s]
   bundle of 13 uncursed arrows of demon slaying (+3, 1d6+3)          [26s]
   bundle of 4 uncursed arrows (+0, 1d6+1)                             [8s]
   bundle of 9 uncursed quarrels (+1, 2d6+1)                          [18s]
   bundle of 3 uncursed mithril quarrels (+2, 2d6+5)                   [6s]
   bundle of 4 uncursed penetrating adamantium quarrels (+1, 2d6+6)    [4s]
   bundle of 19 uncursed arrows (+3, 1d6)                             [38s]
   bundle of 6 uncursed adamantium arrows (+1, 1d6+6)                  [6s]
   bundle of 30 uncursed quarrels of giant slaying (+3, 2d8+3)       [120s]
   bundle of 20 uncursed arrows (+2, 1d6+2)                           [40s]
   bundle of 7 uncursed adamantium quarrels (+1, 2d6+6)                [7s]
   bundle of 3 uncursed eternium quarrels (+1, 4d6+11)                 [3s]
   bundle of 20 uncursed quarrels of jelly slaying (+3, 2d6+3)        [80s]
   bundle of 24 uncursed arrows (-3, 1d6+2)                           [48s]
   bundle of 13 uncursed arrows and targeting (+7, 1d6)               [26s]
   bundle of 3 uncursed griffon-feathered adamantium quarrels (+2, 2d6+6)
   bundle of 14 uncursed quarrels (+2, 2d6)                           [28s]
   uncursed arrow (+1, 1d6)                                            [2s]
   bundle of 9 uncursed arrows (+0, 1d6+3)                            [18s]
   bundle of 2 uncursed adamantium arrows (+1, 1d6+7)                  [2s]
   bundle of 5 uncursed delicate eternium quarrels (+4, 4d6+8)         [5s]
   bundle of 7 blessed quarrels of dragon slaying (+3, 2d6+3)         [28s]
   bundle of 2 uncursed eternium quarrels (+4, 4d6+11)                 [2s]
   blessed eternium quarrel (+2, 4d6+8)                                [1s]
   bundle of 23 uncursed arrows (+3, 1d6+3)                           [46s]
   bundle of 5 blessed arrows (-3, 1d6+1)                             [10s]
   bundle of 28 uncursed quarrels of demon slaying (+3, 2d6+3)       [112s]
   blessed eternium quarrel of slaying (+1, 4d6+8)                     [1s]
   bundle of 8 uncursed quarrels (+4, 2d6+3)                          [16s]
   bundle of 4 uncursed arrows (+0, 1d6+2)                             [8s]
   bundle of 13 blessed quarrels (+4, 2d6)                            [26s]
   bundle of 27 uncursed arrows of humanoid slaying (+3, 1d6+3)       [54s]
   bundle of 6 uncursed arrows of jelly slaying (+3, 2d4+5)           [12s]
   bundle of 5 blessed arrows of dragon slaying (+3, 1d6+3)           [10s]
   bundle of 3 uncursed eternium arrows (+1, 2d6+8)                    [3s]
   bundle of 8 uncursed mithril arrows (-3, 1d6+3)                    [16s]
   bundle of 19 uncursed arrows (+1, 1d6+3)                           [38s]
   bundle of 4 uncursed adamantium quarrels and thunder (+4, 2d6+5)    [4s]
   bundle of 19 uncursed arrows of giant slaying (+3, 1d10+3)         [38s]
   bundle of 8 uncursed arrows (-3, 1d6+3)                            [16s]
   bundle of 2 cursed eternium quarrels (+1, 4d6+7)                    [2s]
   bundle of 9 blessed arrows of jelly slaying (+5, 2d4+3)            [18s]
   bundle of 4 uncursed eternium quarrels (-1, 4d6+8)                  [4s]
   bundle of 11 uncursed quarrels (+3, 2d6+2)                         [22s]
   bundle of 22 uncursed arrows (+2, 1d6-1)                           [44s]

If you ask me, I would be in favor of removing B/U/C variation from missiles. It will at least nerf extra damage to demons/undead and shift destruction chance solely to the material.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I think that as a general principle, if you are saying you love ADOM for all the obscure, convoluted, and dated features and mechanics of this type, what you are really also saying is that you are okay with development proceeding at a glacial pace.

First of all, yes, I love ADOM "for all the obscure, convoluted, and dated features and mechanics". I love ADOM because it's the most rich and complex game I have tried. I also love some minimalistic games (e.g. Brogue) but that's a different kind of experience. When I play ADOM, I want to have a zillion items interacting in a zillion ways. That's what makes it special, and adds a lot to roleplaying. Brogue is masterful as a game of tactics, skill and careful thought, but it's very poor as a role playing game, ADOM excels there.

Second, what you say is a false dichotomy. The pace of development doesn't have that much to do with complication of mechanics. If you have a look at the features that are currently marked as required for the Steam release milestone ( http://www.adom.de/forums/projectmil...&filter=active ), you will see that they don't have anything to do with this. Most are pure UI issues, some of them quite simple (e.g. race and class suggestions being cut off) and still aren't being addressed. TB himself has often commented on the reasons for the slow pace of development and they are mostly related to personal issues. Furthermore, if you have been following the progress long enough, you will know that when he gets some days off that he can devote to ADOM, he addresses a lot of issues in short periods of time. So from what we know it's not like he starts working on an issue and he gets stuck for hours and hours because it's very difficult to implement, but rather that he just has very little time.

Finally, even if the dichotomy were real (which it isn't), then yes, I'd rather not simplify and have development proceeding at a glacial pace than simplify and have development proceed at a faster pace. OK, I can put up with some reduction in the variety of boni that ammo can get (although it wouldn't be needed with a quiver feature). But definitely the release where the game starts getting rid of throwing clubs, modifiers, hand crossbows, etc. as suggested above will be the release where I save the previous version of the game, disable Steam updates and ignore all subsequent versions.

[AlterAsc]

We should not forget to differentiate between complex and deep.
Having 50 stacks of missiles instead of one because they have differnce of 1 to-hit and in B/U/C status doesn't make gameplay deeper. There are no meaningful decisions around it, only annoyance in seeing 50 stacks of missiles in your inventory and having to reload more.

[sweetnothing]

For me, all those little random variations of item PV/DV/to-hit/to-dam make no sense. Yes, it is pleasing sometimes and can help with survavability greatly but not really that important. In the end you can craft those items on your own if you want (scrolls, smithing).

[blunk]

I enjoy the random variety but I would love to have more sorting, wands in alphabetic order and ammo in stacks according to "slaying foo".

The only time I've used hand crossbow was my dark elven archer who didn't find ANY bows or xbows until coc.
How many times did you use a "robe" armour (that wasn't shirt of saints or robes of resistance)?
How often do you carry around leather armours and identify them? yes sometimes we're packrats but even that have it's limits.

In general gameplay I think the variety in thrown/junk-ranged/crap-armour mostly is there to fool the inexperienced player but still I'm not sure I want it removed, maybe it's too much oldschool nostalgia.

Howabout allow using fletchery skill to average stacks or turn them into +0+0 ammo so you can keep a decent stack and still get some use of the odd ammo?

[JellySlayer]

For me, all those little random variations of item PV/DV/to-hit/to-dam make no sense. Yes, it is pleasing sometimes and can help with survavability greatly but not really that important. In the end you can craft those items on your own if you want (scrolls, smithing).

Well, from a realism point of view, they actually make a lot of sense. When you aren't dealing with mass-produced products, individual variations in tools due to the skill of the craftsmen, the quality of the materials, etc. are not only possible but expected. Even with mass-produced products, there's no guarantee that any two of the manufactured items will be exactly the same, although the variations are generally much smaller.

From a gameplay point of view, it's more of a mixed bag. Missiles are probably the worst case scenario of this problem--they're limited time use, you need to carry a lot of them, and reloading individual missiles is extremely tedious. For armor, melee weapons, etc. the benefits of this are pretty nice because you have the chance to find gear that's considerably better than average, to the point of actually making a significant difference in gameplay. There's not much difference between a 1d6 arrow and a 1d6+3 arrow, but there's a huge difference between a [0,1] robe and a [3,3] robe.

[Rick]

Maybe a first solution could be, when pressing (n), to show only ammo for equipped weapon (slings if I remember shows only rocks, bullets and potions, but crossbows and bows shows everything, sometimes happen to lose turns for choosing the right slaying ammo with the wrong weapon, usually when it's deep night and I've been playing for trhee hours....... )....
All these variations for the same kind of ammo is quite the problem of tons of different stacks, maybe can be done a single to-hit and damage value for every different material (who knows, wood +1, mithril+2, adamantium +3 etc..)..just not to have dozen of stacks for the same type of ammo.

Maybe...but anyway I love this game for how much is complicate...I hope for adding features instead to remove or simplify...new random dungeons are a great idea, these are the changes that I like