on the fun things in life (like breaking a game)

[auricbond]

Threads for context:
Make potentials untrainable or trainable only limited times per game
alter the stat ceiling

I remember when I broke a MUD once--it turned out that firing a (very hard to obtain) wand that fills multiple rooms with columns of flame, could (unintentionally) invoke infinitely respawning demons (missing fire resistance) inside a pyramid. You could stand outside, zap the wand north over and over and gain xp at about 50 times the rate of playing normally, with zero risk (except when the fireball rebounded, but it was easily avoided). I could get max level in about ten minutes. I enjoyed the actual solving of the problem, but the actual putting it into practice was the longest ten minutes of my life, and felt longer than the week it would normally take to raise such a character. It felt like it just cheapened everything I had previously been struggling for and reduced the game to what it really just was--a bunch of numbers.

So what I take from that experience is that I enjoyed the actual figuring out how to crack the code... but after that, it ceased to interest me. And to my mind, I see no difference between making an arch-mage, and zapping that wand over and over into that pyramid and watching my xp score go up. If I can write it out on paper, I almost don't want to do it... if it ceases to be organic--i.e. to be more to my imagination than just a numbers game-- and becomes a homework assignment--one I've completed.

While I don't begrudge people their preferences and they can enjoy whatever they please, I do declare that I cannot relate and I am skeptical that people find arch-mage so precious that they'd forego a 100 granted RFE's of their own choosing over losing the ability to do it, no matter how the game was retuned or the pacing altered or the reference points of what counts as powerful and not, altered.

I also reported that wand exploit as a bug and the demons got slapped with fire resistance. Just less fun for everyone! Hahahaha. No, but seriously, if someone else figured it out and told me "Did you know you could once do this to get to max level immediately?" I wouldn't feel like I was missing a damn thing.

The argument other people meet me with, is that I'm not gaining anything either; that only those who would have liked the exploit to remain are missing out.


I disagree, and if you know where I'm coming from you'll see why: My instinct when playing is to maximize my chances--I actually will scan for loopholes, I will try to break it, I will look for the best, most abusive strategy--and I WANT the developer to go 'ha, nope, already thought of that', or "nope, I'm forcing you to think of some other way to tackle this, you can't keep doing that over-and-over". Reward my cleverness in small doses, but also occasionally thwart it. Keep swinging between an ebb and flow of power and you will keep me at my most engaged. I believe that well-executed balance (rather than the knee-jerk/overkill nerfing sort) is done with this state of affairs as the end goal.

I am like a river and I will willfully fill every channel in front of me--and only later, in full context and retrospect can I say if I had actually enjoyed myself. (The comedian David Mitchell made a video on this concept of enjoyment requiring a full narrative context in some scenarios). To actually assess what is and isn't fun and refrain from the strategies that aren't, feels like an extra job layered on top of simply enjoying and taking in the game. No, I wasn't this uptight with RPGs as a teenager; it's something I've developed as I come to understand them better and I expect more out of them as my tastes have developed. An RPG that is so beautifully crafted from a balance perspective as to meet my lofty standards probably doesn't exist, but ADOM is definitely among those I'd rate the highest (and that wasn't the case in its heydey, pre BS-removal).

If anything makes the exploiting/breaking to be a special thing it is because it transcends the understood limits, so really, everyone wants limits--but some just want holes in the dyke. I don't mind closing off a loophole and then the developer's focus goes into making something so fun that the lovers of arch-mage forget the concept even existed. I don't mind a dyke being raised down one avenue if it forces me to flow down another path and discover something even more enjoyable that I hadn't considered. But apparently some haven't the imagination to think that such a thing can come to be. I have more faith! And if the only flavour you enjoy anymore is cheese, then you need to broaden your pallet and remember what some of the other flavours used to be like.

[shockeroo]

The things you are trying to close are not simple exploits or shortcuts (and we've closed a f--kton of those lately, with almost universal support). It takes a LOT of knowledge, time and planning to give a character ridiculous stats - more than it takes to beat the game (and I've done both).

Since 99-stat archmaging and so on are significantly harder than actually winning, I see no reason to take those features away from the people that choose to play at them.

[auricbond]

The things you are trying to close are not simple exploits or shortcuts (and we've closed a f--kton of those lately, with almost universal support). It takes a LOT of knowledge, time and planning to give a character ridiculous stats - more than it takes to beat the game (and I've done both).

Since 99-stat archmaging and so on are significantly harder than actually winning, I see no reason to take those features away from the people that choose to play at them.

I agree that arch-mage is no easy-cheesy exploit, but the arguments used in its defense sound an awful lot like the arguments I've seen in defense of any other exploit, and since there are people raising those defenses the support for closing exploits is not unanimous as you suggest. Fwiw my suggestions are not trying to block arch-mage, that's just an inadvertent casualty. I'm mainly explaining the 'what fors' and where I'm coming from since some like to declare that I'm being utterly arbitrary with my suggestions, and that gets tiresome.

[shockeroo]

Make me a video of how the things you want to change in ADOM are making the game so easy we might as well be zapping a wand 500 times to get to max level, and I'll support any change you like.

[Blasphemous]

The problem is that you tend to claim that yours is the only proper way of addressing problems and fixing what you perceive as exploits.
That last part is important - perceived exploits.
I don't think for a second that archmage is an exploit, it's just a showcase of what the game technically allows you to do.
I have to create an archmage once a year and then enjoy doing things that no other character can do.
Yes, believe it or not, I actually find satisfaction in building that character, I enjoy collecting items, talents and corruptions that let me do it, I explore dungeons in search of that one convenient "skin tingle" room with an altar nearby.
I get regularly thrilled at the prospect of gaining enough PP for that first wish bookcast and watching as all other things click in.
It's a different sort of gameplay, rewarding in its own special way, that's why I'd hate to see it go.

Does it detract from the pleasure and experience of the game? Not at all, it enhances it for me.
After doing an archmage, I can safely play 20-30 or more characters in the regular fashion and those are all entertaining games.
I don't try to become the archmage on my every playthrough with any r/c, far from it.
However, just knowing it's out there and if I so chose, I can become one, makes me more content while playing regular games, I don't know why.

Archmage is a sort of alternative gauge of my achievements, a measure of another r/c combo's proficiency.
It's a false mirror through which I see how my other characters are faring. It's not comparison, mind you, that would be preposterous.

It's like driving a car. Archmage is the equivalent of pressing on the gas pedal until your vehicle reaches its maximum speed.
Sure it's fun from time to time and instead of time investment like in adom, you're expected to invest money for the gas which your roaring engine will gobble up but it's the same thing.
However, the real fun is between 0 and the red field - the acceleration and gear switching, the engine screaming as it encroaches on 8k rpm or the jolt of torque as you reduce the gear just before overtaking some other car.
Just knowing that you could drive faster means you feel more comfortable while still observing existing speed limits.
That's archmage and adom for me.

Auricbond:
I value all RFEs you make and I believe it's important to question the way this game works, even if I don't always agree with that.
I encourage you to continue doing that as I see a lot of merit in what you say. I can be stubborn and headstrong too and quite outspoken about things I wouldn't want changed but don't let that discourage you.

We simply differ in how we perceive the future avenues of development and improvement.
For example I'm of the belief that attributes/stats/potentials is the last line of approach to character differentiation because they are in principle too generic - anybody can be strong, smart or agile - be it assassin, troll, wizard or barbarian.
However, for most RPG games the most alluring part of class specialization has been the range of unique powers only that class can use.
Having certain very powerful features makes me want to play that class - look how well archmage fits into this scheme: it's an almost exclusive wizard feature (though notably Porkman made a farmer archmage once).
It takes all the wizard's powers and finds a new purpose for them, sort of a culmination of all previous efforts. No other class offers that to me, with some exceptions getting closer than others.

One of my most favorite classes in adom is the mindcrafter. Why? Because it's so different, it has class powers that nobody else does and a broad range to chose from.
The excitement of GTB at mindcrafter's level 30 is something I fail to find anywhere else - all other classes and their various class advantages at different levels barely ever make me flinch, with the exception perhaps of assassins and their insta-kills.
They are all a rehash of what's been done before, of what other classes can do quite well.
Monks can kick through walls! Man what an amazing feature, no other class can do that. This makes me excited at level 13 - I know I can't replicate this feature on any other class.
You just press "k" select a direction and *poof* - new corridor.

This is what I perceive as the way to do character differentiation.

With my mind's eye, I see weaponsmiths being able to forge weapons and armor from scratch, maybe even improve artifacts at the highest levels.
I see elementalists ignore walls like ghosts instead of burrowing through them at level 50, I see them unleashing forms of elemental magic that are not available to regular wizards or at least use existing elemental magic at the fraction of the cost and with increased power. That in exchange for having more problems casting other spells - increased costs or lower effectivity.

Imagine necromancers capable of building undead golems with interchangeable parts from slain enemies, orcs seeing in the darkness at some level, healers able to "heal" drained stats, paladins with passive auras of holiness that consume piety points instead of power points (vel mindcrafter's mental shield), archers capable of creating specific slaying missiles or making bows and crossbows of more specialized types and so on and so forth.

Those are just some ideas off the top of my head - take the existing classes and push them further into what they do best.
Take the meager class powers away and replace them with something powerful, maybe even too powerful, too advantageous.
Make people think: "Hmmm I could play this class because it has amazing "this". But oh no, if I don't play XYZ then I won't be able to use YZX. Damn, what do I do?"

Instead, what we have right now is: I wanna play a proficient caster, let's chose a wizard. It can learn all magic tricks, it can train bows and spears with ease, it can start with SoA, acid bolt and teleportation.
Other caster classes sort of pale in comparison because in the magic department they are all inferior. All melee classes fail because they cannot cast spells well.
If the advantages and disadvantages of classes were *much* more pronounced through more unique class powers/affinities/abilities, it would make Adom considerably more interesting from the class selection point of view.
Add to that synergy with races, so certain combinations empower particular features while weaken some other characteristics and you make the character creation a mini-game on its own.

EDIT: Just one more note on breaking the game: dipping 19 rings into poex and getting 19 wishes - that was the real exploit, that was the part that broke it.
I did it every time and it cheapened the experience but I couldn't stop, it was so simple, so easy and so quick.

Archmage doesn't fall anywhere near that category for me and I'm sure you all know why. It's neither easy nor simple but most definitely - not quick.
Thus the frequency in my case - one archmage a year.

[Drifted]

I'm with Blasphemous with this. Lowering hard cap does not make game any more challenging than now. Stats in range of 30-40 are considered more than enough to beat game easily. So in my eyes lowering hard cap to 50 accomplish nothing. In a sense it doesn't even remove archmage as 99 stats is just byproduct of archiving the "title". And claiming that archmage is an "exploit" is just hilarious. I suggest checking wiki article what it takes to get infinite wish casting going. Yes it breaks the game but the amount of grinding needed would have granted you all the equipment and consumables to make you close to godlike.

I also agree with making class powers more distinguishing. Some of them are already there like mighty/tremendous blow of barbarian or thief's invisibility next to walls. In my opinion what makes interesting class power is

1) Niche ability that has it's uses from time to time (wand recharging of wizards or tremendous blow of barbarian)
2) Improving the performance of the class's speciality role (for example spellcasting for wizards or ranged for archers)
3) Quality of life improvements that fit the "lore" for that class (fletching for archers, wall breaking kick of monks)

What I currently find stale and boring are all the stat increasing class powers and the multiple ranks of the same power. I also don't like too-niche powers like ignoring weather effects for druids/rangers. Yes it fits to lore but how many times from 100 games you get your gear ruined from rain? Some of them could be given straight out passives from the level 1. They are too underwhelming and instead they could have actually interesting and useful class powers. In lines what Blasphemous was suggesting.

[grobblewobble]

If both RFE´s were implemented, it would not make any difference for archmages. It would not make it any harder to get one started, and it would hardly make them any less godly, either. Extreme stats are one of the least important features of an archmage.

I don´t see any problem with archmages, but these two RFE´s do not even really have anything to do with them.

[ghostjghost]

Creating challenge by removing choice is poor design.

It's like beating a hard boss and then being told you had to be rescued from death anyways via cut-scene interference. If I beat the boss I want the game to realize I beat the boss, not have a cut-scene tell me he ran away after thinking he's the one that won.

Same thing here - I have never had stats above 35 and that's with an orb equipped - but if I did manage somehow to get my stats high I would want the game to accept and acknowledge that. It's about immersion vs the challenge of reality.

If a player wants realistic challenge they should get off their ass and do something in the real world, games are for immersion into the fantasy world - where we control everything.

At least that's my opinion.