Points-based generation discussion (R65)

[shockeroo]

edit: It is worse than disappointing. I tried rolling hobit assassin. I can't allocate a single point (even as a decrease) in neither mana nor strength. WTF?

Yeah, it really is very limiting. A bigger range is definitely needed.

If it worked how you want, what would be the point of random generation?

I would expect to have higher *average* stats on a random character, than if I'd min-maxed in a points-based system.

I'm also ok with maybe being able to get +1 max score on random/question generation; but I've made a ton of characters now, and I can consistently get as good or usually better on any individual stat by answering questions.

I really think I should not be able to get better average results in the stats I care about through the question system, than I can get by just allocating points. To my mind, the points-based system is supposed to save me time answering all the questions to get the same results.

[Soirana]

I really think I should not be able to get better average results in the stats I care about through the question system, than I can get by just allocating points. To my mind, the points-based system is supposed to save me time answering all the questions to get the same results.

That's a good point. Player is not supposed to know exact effects of questions, although, in this age anyone who wants will get to the table.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I *massively* disagree with this. The whole point of this for me is that I don't have to re-roll to get what I want. If it doesn't MAKE what I want, it's no use to me.

I don't think that's the point at all. The point is that you can get a character that satisfies your general preferences (e.g. high strength, high toughness), not to get the optimal character.

For example, if without points-based generation you can get a given R/C combo with between 10 and 20 To depending on luck, and points-based generation guarantees you 18 To (but not the really lucky roll of 20 To), I'd say that's right.

I don't know if the fine-tuning of the system is just right right now because I haven't tested it extensively enough, just saying that the general idea of not being able to get as high stats as with random generation sounds fine to me, in fact it's exactly how it should be.

And let's remind ourselves that automatic rerolling is cheating, and manual rerolling is... well, passable (it's something the game lets you do) but non-standard and dodgy at best. I don't think any game feature should be measured against that. New features aren't there to save cheaters from cheating or obsessive rerollers from spending a while rerolling, they are there to enhance and expand the options of the intended playing experience.

[shockeroo]

I don't know if the fine-tuning of the system is just right right now because I haven't tested it extensively enough, just saying that the general idea of not being able to get as high stats as with random generation sounds fine to me, in fact it's exactly how it should be.

And let's remind ourselves that automatic rerolling is cheating, and manual rerolling is... well, passable (it's something the game lets you do) but non-standard and dodgy at best. I don't think any game feature should be measured against that. New features aren't there to save cheaters from cheating or obsessive rerollers from spending a while rerolling, they are there to enhance and expand the options of the intended playing experience.

1) It may not be the point to you; it's certainly the point to me.

2) It's not even random; I can CONSISTENTLY get better results by answering questions.

3) You're right, you don't know. Go and test more.

4) Don't tell me what is and isn't cheating. If you think that anyone sane is going to attempt speedruns and extreme challenge games without rerolls restarts, well, you're not taking a sane approach to those things. I can beat the goddamn game on a fated human farmer or whatever you like; I just want this feature to be useful to me.

[Soirana]

I don't think that's the point at all.

For example, if without points-based generation you can get a given R/C combo with between 10 and 20 To depending on luck, and points-based generation guarantees you 18 To (but not the really lucky roll of 20 To), I'd say that's right.

I do agree on random roll, but question system in the essence is a way to put emphasis on certain stats. If question system beats point allocation consistently (and it seems that way).... that is no good for anyone.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

1) It may not be the point to you; it's certainly the point to me.

If the point to you is getting absolute optimal stats, then you are inflicting the boring task of rerolling upon yourself, don't blame the game for that. ADOM is a roguelike and some luck is supposed to be involved in the character generation process, so that once in a while you get an epic outlier character, but not every character is an epic outlier character. If you really want the latter, then no one stops you from rerolling, but don't take the fun of character generation away for the rest of the players.

2) It's not even random; I can CONSISTENTLY get better results by answering questions.

I was talking about points-based vs. random stats. Regarding the points-based vs. question-based system, I agree with you. They should be roughly equivalent. Perhaps questions should get some edge from time to time (as you don't control which questions you get) but definitely not consistently.

3) You're right, you don't know. Go and test more.

Oh, sorry for enjoying the game as a game and not a spreadsheet. I'm not going to generate thousands of characters to test this, but the opinion I posted stands on purely conceptual grounds: I am just saying that random generation should provide (with a good roll) stat layouts that are unreachable with points-based generation, that that's OK and in fact, it's the way it should be. Discussing the fine-grained qualitative aspects (what the difference should be exactly) does require more data and testing, but I haven't talked about that. Maybe the points-based characters do need some buff, I am not denying that - but they shouldn't be made equivalent to random characters.

4) Don't tell me what is and isn't cheating. If you think that anyone sane is going to attempt speedruns and extreme challenge games without rerolls restarts, well, you're not taking a sane approach to those things. I can beat the goddamn game on a fated human farmer or whatever you like; I just want this feature to be useful to me.

This is something that arises frequently in the forums. I enjoy speedruns and extreme challenge games, as many players do, but the game shouldn't be designed or balanced around them. It should be balanced for the "normal" game, the story that the game is telling (ADOM is about saving the world from chaos, not about going to a tower, killing a wyrm and going back, or suchlike).

Those of us who like extreme challenges can still use tools like rerollers, no one will complain if you use a reroller to do Brimstone Man, I think it's universally accepted that that's fine. But this shouldn't be something that affects standard play. If we allow choosing any stats that could be generated by rerolling for the sake of extreme challenge games, do we also allow the player to choose starting with dual rings of fire resistance or a useful wand? This would impoverish the base game experience, and reduce the roguelike feel.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I do agree on random roll, but question system in the essence is a way to put emphasis on certain stats. If question system beats point allocation consistently (and it seems that way).... that is no good for anyone.

I agree, I was talking about random vs. point-based, leaving questions out.

I am a fan of questions for role-playing reasons, but I don't think they should give an advantage with respect to point-based generation. As there is some randomness in the questions that you get, I would expect question-based characters to be slightly better than points-based ones sometimes, and slightly worse other times. But being consistently better is definitely wrong.

[_Ln_]

Let's be reasonable, nobody would have used the question system if someone hadn't lifted direct changes it introduces. With so much randomness, it's nearly impossible to get the numbers through statistics.

Now that we have point-based generation (sorry I haven't tried it yet as my ADOM doesn't work), it might be prudent to request a rewrite of effects. I would think that this could be done to some extent, as a lot of answers are far from obioust (and well, reasonable).

[Soirana]

Now that we have point-based generation (sorry I haven't tried it yet as my ADOM doesn't work), it might be prudent to request a rewrite of effects. I would think that this could be done to some extent, as a lot of answers are far from obioust (and well, reasonable).

I suggest simply showing effects on screen. Or at least having an option to show them. In modern world people don't click through bunch of text for obnoxious reasons (well, most people don't).

[Blank4u47]

I, for one am quite pleased with the current implementation of the point based system. Finally have a successful unarmed duelist challenge because of it! Also, it looks like humans really come out on top with this system, with very average stats and 8 extra points to play with.