Points-based generation discussion (R65)

[torc]

The problem with the current character creation is the huge randomness of the attributes. For me at least the biggest barrier of starting a new game is that I know that I will be spending half an hour just to get a character with playable stats. The volatileness of the early game makes the barrier even bigger. Losing character that I used half an hour to make to a hill orc patrol just makes me go play something else.

The random method is just too random: When rolling human monk my str scores varied from something like 9 to 20. That's way too much. The question system on the other hand is pretty tedious. You have to swap between ADOM and a site with the questions listed to find the optimal answers. And even then you sometimes seem to get abysmal stats. This leads to a need to use keyboard macros or automated rollers. Having to use third party tools to play a game is not very nice. Now I thought the points selection was being added to remove this need for these third party tools but guess that's not the case.

Also there seem to be many newcomers who do not know about this randomness. They will happily accept a character with unplayable stats and then complain when the game seems too hard. No one told them that if you roll a melee character and end up with <10 str and to you should just reroll. Guess that's a part of the learning curve though.

[zliplus]

Regarding torc's point, I strongly disagree that most characters have 'unplayable stats' - It might be far more challenging to start with low stats but the vast majority of characters are very playable regardless (though you might have to choose an easier start instead of the SMC/UD run for example). While many people may reroll (a lot?) and it is practically necessary for some challenges, it should not be considered standard to do so. That being said, torc brings up a great point in that the massive randomness is a major barrier to newer players (especially since it is not clear to them how good/bad a character is). In this respect, I think point-buy generating mostly average characters is quite good as an easier fast option for newer players (than pure random).

[_Ln_]

I can imagine that type of compromise being sellable to general public (current one, IMHO, would result in ****storm).

I agree. I would bet 5 bucks a topic "I can't create a hurthling with 25 St/Troll with 25 Le WTF???" will arise several days after release.

Regarding torc's point, I strongly disagree that most characters have 'unplayable stats' - It might be far more challenging to start with low stats but the vast majority of characters are very playable regardless (though you might have to choose an easier start instead of the SMC/UD run for example). While many people may reroll (a lot?) and it is practically necessary for some challenges, it should not be considered standard to do so. That being said, torc brings up a great point in that the massive randomness is a major barrier to newer players (especially since it is not clear to them how good/bad a character is). In this respect, I think point-buy generating mostly average characters is quite good as an easier fast option for newer players (than pure random).

They are playable if you know all the cheap survival tricks. Try rolling a 12 Le human wizard and not dying to some large orc in the first dungeon because you managed to read the manual on spellcasting but it didn't help.

[zliplus]

They are playable if you know all the cheap survival tricks. Try rolling a 12 Le human wizard and not dying to some large orc in the first dungeon because you managed to read the manual on spellcasting but it didn't help.

You mean killing them with one or two spells is hard? It's not like a 12 Le human wizard can't read his starting bolt book, he just gets fewer castings. He might run into trouble if/when he runs out but that's at least several levels away.

[BenMathiesen]

I was also confused after seeing the results. It would be good to display a note on the screen clarifying that the character's background story can have a further effect on your chosen stats.
Personally, I think a more logical way to distribute points would be to have all races spend the same number of points to move from 10-11, then apply racial and class bonuses--so Str 11 for a troll becomes Str 19, for example.
I also like the question-based system, but I wouldn't mind seeing the effects of each question randomized a little. See also RFEs proposing that it have a bigger impact on the character through starting alignment, equipment, etc.

[hapro]

I was also confused after seeing the results. It would be good to display a note on the screen clarifying that the character's background story can have a further effect on your chosen stats.
Personally, I think a more logical way to distribute points would be to have all races spend the same number of points to move from 10-11, then apply racial and class bonuses--so Str 11 for a troll becomes Str 19, for example.

That's more like I expected it to be. Like it starts off with all attributes at 5, and you have 15 points to distribute, and you can remove points from other stats to get more. Then it will say Str 11 +(2-9) which meant your race/class would provide 2-9 more in addition to whatever you set it at.

[Soirana]

That's more like I expected it to be. Like it starts off with all attributes at 5, and you have 15 points to distribute, and you can remove points from other stats to get more. Then it will say Str 11 +(2-9) which meant your race/class would provide 2-9 more in addition to whatever you set it at.

Except that is not how stats work in ADOM (at least as far as I understand).
Your racial base is multiplied by your class base and when somehow background is applied (not sure about that one). So this way it would be roll base*race*class, which can get out of hand rather quickly.
My fair guess is that current point system actually allows to point modify race multiplier, mostly in order to fit in the existing stat generation system. Of course, I can be terribly wrong. (Except stats before modifying are exact match of guidebook racial stats table....)

It feels to me that this feature has been designed around and constrained by the way ADOM already generates attributes, as opposed to a new feature that's well-designed in it's own right.

+1

[Caleb]

How does it work in similar games

There's a min and max stat. By random rolling (Let's take a dnd hardcore example that people rarely did: 6x3 dice every stat) you might get something insane (like, a 18-18-18-18-18-18 dnd char) but also a gimp (3 pts every stat). Manual creation gives either a clean base or an average (point buy system in dnd, more popular one) to allocate points. You can still reach the maximum but don't expect to get more than 2 stats maxed with average others or 3 maxed with gimped others.

So,

1. Random rolling and manual rolling have the same maximum stats. Mist elves not being able to touch toughness etc is wrong, period.
2. Random rolling over the long course will give you the average stats. Point-based generation will give you below average stats.

The current form is flawed.

I was too lazy to explain any of the popular systems, feel free to do it.

[Blank4u47]

I did some testing by comparing backgrounds, with a male human wizard with base stats at 9,11,9,9,9,9,9,9,9 born on the book, and from what I can see, the characters background has a far more profound effect on stats than stat distribution.

After star sign and class are factored in, each character was supposed to have 9,17,13,11,9,12,10,13,11 but I got stats as high as 13,25,17,15,14,17,13,17,14. And as low as 3,12,10,7,9,4,3,2,6. This is with around a 100 rolls. Also, the only rolls that got down that low were the fell seriously ill background, otherwise all stats stayed slightly above what they were supposed to.

From what I can see, the background has a far more serious impact than the random stat roll or even the point distribution does.

[yhal003]

r65 is not available for general population yet?

From what I've read here, it seems that even chars generated with point-based method have random stats due to background. And that completely defeats the purpose of this feature, at least for me. I understand that ability to select a favourable background is considered too powerful, but why not pre-select neutral background instead? Even if all chars are generated with 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 it would still be more useful (for challenge games).

They are playable if you know all the cheap survival tricks. Try rolling a 12 Le human wizard and not dying to some large orc in the first dungeon because you managed to read the manual on spellcasting but it didn't help.

That's more of a problem with certain RC combos and humans in particular. It does not take that long to roll a playable grey elf wizard or a dwarven monk.