Skills

[phauli]

While i'm not sure if i've understood the whole character advancement system correctly, i assume there were to be no experience levels or the like (correct me if i misunderstood).

This led me to think about a skill based character advancement. I do not know if this is what TB meant to do but i think i'll post it here anyway

So in ADOM we have skills, talents and class powers. What if these could all be merged in a sensible way. In ADOM we can increase skills on level ups and by using them. If there were to be no level ups that would leave only using skills. Now what if your skills would level up after reaching certain proficiency and net you class power like abilities related to the skill.

Take melee fighting related skills (find weakness, tactics, two weapon combat...), talents (affinities, melee master, basher line...) and class powers (tremendous blow, chances of stunning, all round attack...) and the weapon skill levels. Now if you want to play a character focused on melee combat you would get related skills upon starting the game and the more you use these skills there more proficient you get them (ie. using two weapons trains the respective skill more). At start you could use two small weapons (like daggers) with relative ease. As you continue to use them you increase in skill and after you reached certain amount of skill you can dual wield more heavier weapons easier. Add to this that upon reaching new skill levels you are more likely to hit enemies, you inrcease your damage output and you can defend yourself (ADOM weapon skills). Now on top of all this you would gain less frequently classpower-like skill related abilities.

Another example. Movement related skill. At the very basic level you can move around in hilly areas with increased energy consumption, climb out of holes and such. With more skill you learn how to swim, decrease movement energy cost, even move silently (stealth), maybe even burrow through stone.

While healing related skill would first allow you to do very basic first aid, then at higher levels grant poison/illness resistances and at the very high skill level even grant regeneration.

With this kind of system even spells could work differently. At low skill levels on spellcraft your arcane spellcaster could only learn very basic spells from his school of magic. Increase in skill and you get to learn better spells and your earlier spells increase somewhat in power (not so much tho that some simple spells can out-damage better spells). More skill and the arcane wizard is able to learn clerical spells. As with increased skill level you would again see the classpower-type reduction to spellcost and talent-type increased PP-regen, book casting and what now abilities.

Then if you start the game with a melee focused PC you can get some skill in melee fighting and defensive arts and then find a master/teacher to become their apprentice/student to learn the basics of a HUGE skill like spellcraft or a bit smaller skill like alchemy (containing ADOM skills alchemy[duh], herbalism).

[brim]

Since when are there not going to be experience levels? Did TB say that somewhere?

You have some interesting ideas, though to some extent they are already in ADOM. As far as talents go, things like weapon affinities and whatnot are basically already a part of weapon skill, your skill goes up and so does your to-hit, just like the affinity would do. Integrating class powers into that could be very cool though. Getting weapon proficiencies with a blunt weapon might allow you to discover the art of stunning oponents, or peircing weapons like spears would grant +crit like the fighter/assassin class power.

For spellcasting, there are many factors in learning spells and using them proficiently (Le, Wi, Ma, Conc, Literacy), and it sounds like you would just roll them all into one skill: Spellcraft. I do think its a bit silly that with a high LE wizard you can hit level 4 or 5 and have 100 Conc and Literacy and be ready to learn improved fireball and teleport though... I think it would be cool to have a system where you could not learn ball or imp. ball spells from a book, but rather start at Burning Hands, and when that gets to a certain proficiency you would discover how to use Firebolt, and so on.

I realize I partially just reiterated some of what you said, but it helped me work out your ideas for my better understanding. Could be interesting if there were indeed no experience levels. With levels, of course, I'd just as soon keep it the way it is in ADOM.

[phauli]

Since when are there not going to be experience levels?

Dunno I just have a really vague memory of JADE having at least a bit different character advancement than ADOM.. Could be that there is no cap or something... Haha! I really got things wrong, again

You have some interesting ideas, though to some extent they are already in ADOM.

Was i really that cryptic? What i meant was the skill/talent/class power (and maybe in some extent the weapon skill system) could be merged.

[JellySlayer]

There are other games that have these kinds of system (see, eg. the Elder Scrolls games). The problem is that this type of system either needs to be programmed with a great deal of care, or will be extremely exploitable (see, eg. the Elder Scrolls games).

[Sradac]

Yeah, in elder scrolls all you have to do is sit there casting shield over and over again and you get infinite levels. kinda lame. Im thinking more of a progressive skill system, a level 1 minor shield shouldnt raise your skill much, if at all if you're able to cast a level 40 Aegis of the Gods type shield.

[Cripplefish]

There are other games that have these kinds of system (see, eg. the Elder Scrolls games). The problem is that this type of system either needs to be programmed with a great deal of care, or will be extremely exploitable (see, eg. the Elder Scrolls games).

Indeed. I played the hell out of morrowind and the first playthrough was excellent. Took me months to finish the main quest (I did tons of side quests and exploring before I bothered with the main quest). After I'd finished I made a new character and with my new found knowledge of the game was able to reach level 25 in under an hour. Sucked the fun out of the game for me. I really wouldn't like to see this happen to JADE although it's a great system if properly balanced. You can do it TB!

Yes, I know I'm posting in an ancient thread

[ancient karmic drake]

possibly a runescape-like engine where you gain levels in skills/classes/weapons skills
for using them ex find weakness if you get a critical hit you get a level in the skill if at level 1

[fazisi]

As long as TB keeps the "attunement to the flow of mana" (available number of casts) from casting spells from memory so that you don't have infinite number of casts and it gains power (in the case of this thread: skill ups) from only memory casts, not book casting, it should prevent a novice caster character from reaching maximum level spells before he even kills a monster.

I personally would like this system as it is more realistic that the PC only advance the more you use a skill/ability/technique/spell rather than killing a hundred goblins, then suddenly he gets a bit tougher and knows how to swim, read and cook better.
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SHOWER YOUNG