IGB update

[mjkittredge]

I hate the wiki, it has half-assed info and nasty, intrusive pop up ads that start playing. Some of them seem to be malware infused or try to hijack your browser

[Soirana]

So minor question - has anyone on this particular thread tried actually asking TB - aka The Creator about this particular subject?

That I think, would immediately decide the argument one way or the other. (and probably should have been done in the first place.)

http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=4462

Although knowing Pavel, I am pretty sure no to code diving will not decide anything as far as he is concerned.

I hate the wiki, it has half-assed info and nasty, intrusive pop up ads that start playing. Some of them seem to be malware infused or try to hijack your browser

Well, wiki is free to editing, nobody prevents info you think is incorrect. That is overall main advantage of wiki format.

As far as adds go...
http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread...590#post107590
go bother this guy
Personally, I think adblock is the best way. There was at least two tries to migrate wiki elsewhere, but I don't recall having any success.

[Carter]

sorry but why does it even matter if Thomas isn't a fan of code diving. This is like spoilers - he can say please don't spoil the new areas (he has) but people still do. This is just the next level. So what.

The Volcano only came from code diving and now Thomas is coding a whole quest around it.

[Blasphemous]

Personally, I don't like the approach "lets add new stuff without explaining to experienced players how it works".
TB has frequently posted vague and ambiguous statements in RFEs and bug fixes that go by "adjusted somewhat", "some changes made", "the mechanism is a bit different now" or "added some extra surprise".

That's wrong. There should be a thorough explanation of how, what and where things are different now, including math.
Most computer games with continuous development that I know and play, have change logs that are detailed when balance is affected, with specific numbers posted or new ways things are done explained.
Not so much in ADOM.

Take the ring polymorphy to get RoDS for example. TB said something like "polymorphy is still possible but wish farmers are out of luck".
That's it. Very 'informative' indeed, I had to run my own experiments to discover you can ever only get one rods this way, any subsequent dips will not produce another, no matter what.

If that's how feedback about new changes is provided to players then I will cherish and support every effort to code-dive and get the information that we should have been provided with by the Creator.
There would be no code-diving if all vague and poorly understood game mechanisms were flat out explained with numbers by TB.
His continuous refusal to do that, despite the fact that ADOM has virtually no secrets from the gameplay point of view anymore, is the sole reason why code-diving even exists in the first place.
Of course, Thomas has the right to decide how he translates the changes to us, the player base, and it is his right to establish whatever development rigor and log feedback he wants.

But then nobody should be surprised when code-diving happens.
It will happen and instead of acknowledging that there is a need for specific numbers and direct mathematical formula, people like Soirana attempt to chase away said code-divers, by insults and some pointless threads from another place, dated ten years back or more. What's the point?

Instead of having one board to post information about the game and discuss every aspect of it, we'll have the official forums and some extraneous additional sites and sources of information because somebody has an outdated attitude about code-diving, while the Creator doesn't seem to care at all about posting detailed and accurate information on changes he makes to the game.

[Soirana]

His continuous refusal to do that, despite the fact that ADOM has virtually no secrets from the gameplay point of view anymore, is the sole reason why code-diving even exists in the first place.

while the Creator doesn't seem to care at all about posting detailed and accurate information on changes he makes to the game.

Dude, seriously? You write five paragraphs about how TB keeps things mysterious on purpose and arrive at conclusion that he does not care...

Personally, I don't like the approach "lets add new stuff without explaining to experienced players how it works".

Well, I sort of seriously played CIV. I stopped because to play properly at deity level it become too much of math, spreadsheets and python code interpretation.

On other hand KoL (Kingdom of Loathing) uses more of release stuff and let players figure out (code happens to be on server side, so code diving does not exist). The last time I played, there was seperate forum were people were figuring things out and actually enjoying the process.

In short, I don't think player base is entitled to have the process to be delivered in math formulas and so on.
It's also not like someone is petitioning to close IGB or Sorear's wiki sites. If some people want to do... well, who can stop anyone doing something on the Internet?
On other hand, there is no reason to glorify the process and pretend it is mainstream or something.

sorry but why does it even matter if Thomas isn't a fan of code diving. This is like spoilers - he can say please don't spoil the new areas (he has) but people still do. This is just the next level. So what.

That's rich.
You've got to play the game for free, you are asked few things. Why on Earth should you care?...

I think, few pages ago there is bolded citation from readme about such attitude.

[Blasphemous]

Dude, seriously? You write five paragraphs about how TB keeps things mysterious on purpose and arrive at conclusion that he does not care...

You are taking my words out of context. Let me complete that sentence for you.
"(...) arrive at conclusion that he does not care about posting details and specifics of changes instead of vague remarks."

See the difference? It's called reading comprehension.
This reinforces the previous paragraphs, where I address his keeping things mysterious and how pointless that is.

I'm not playing ADOM for mystery, since it's long gone and not coming back.
I'm playing for predictability AND replayability.
I'm playing it because I already know what I can expect from it and then plan accordingly.
That's a separate playstyle from exploring new, undiscovered lands in games I don't know.

If I wanted a game with mystery, I'd find a random new title and start playing.
There would be more mystery and unknown than there ever will be in any future additions to ADOM.

[Soirana]

You are taking my words out of context. Let me complete that sentence for you.
"(...) arrive at conclusion that he does not care about posting details and specifics of changes instead of vague remarks."

See the difference? It's called reading comprehension.
This reinforces the previous paragraphs, where I address his keeping things mysterious and how pointless that is.

Yuo've spent five paragraphs raving how he posts changes in a rather specific way and... out of blue make conclusion that this is not his intention but based on carelessness... Not sure if reading comprehension was involved on your part...

[Blasphemous]

I actually said this indeed appears to be his intention. It's not due to carelessness but to preference, which is what you misunderstood.
What he does not care about is posting the details -> hence it's his conscious choice. Why it's that way, I have no idea.
That's what all the previous paragraphs were all about.

So yes, he intentionally does not post details of changes and that is part of this whole problem.

[Soirana]

Why it's that way, I have no idea.

Cause the guy was always against posting specific details and considers 'mysteriousness' to be important enough to be mentioned in licenzing document?

I mean, you can disagree with him, but TB reasoning seems to be both clear and persistent.

[Blasphemous]

Yes, that's where I'm going with this - if he persists with this pointless mysteriousness, there will be code-divers that will get that info the hard way.
As for me, I will fully support them.

TB should be more forthcoming with this though, wrap it into spoiler tags if people want to discover it on their own but make that information available.
I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen another one of his vague comments after implementing some of his own ideas, only to be followed by lots of people asking for specifics.
Not to mention people's own RFEs which he introduced into the game in a somewhat changed form, without saying what exactly diverges from the proposed implementation.

If at least TB played his own game on a semi-regular basis, I *might* understand (and it's a long-stretch IF) that he does it to keep being surprised at the unexpected or previously unknown content of his own game.
But as far as I know, he doesn't play ADOM. So, it's only natural that people, which do play it, on a regular basis, came to know and love the game, have a right to know exactly how it's being changed, personal preference of the creator for disclosing that info or not. If they don't get it from him, they will get it from code-divers, which gives them full legitimacy.