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Thread: New Beta - Bugs, Notes and Suggestions for Dev Team

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    Default New Beta - Bugs, Notes and Suggestions for Dev Team

    First off, kudos, everyone! I love the sheer amount of content in this new update - thank you Thomas! A good deal of it is very attractive and functional as well.

    The new introduction is lovely and the quests pre-Terinyo make a lot of sense. Nice work alphabetising the character gen lists, too! The new art - from animated sprites to backgrounds to new UI - is absolutely exquisite. A lot of the changes are slightly jarring at first but are clever and intuitive eventually; $ for payment as well as to check coin on hand is a really sensible one, for example. Automated exploration is still a little jarring with how the animations parse but you actually see the travel route now - no teleporting - which makes much more sense. I really love the new level up screen.

    I do have some early notes, though:

    Firstly, it frustrates me no end to be now unable to simply walk through and auto-open closed doorways using 'y' and the numpad keys via the "Open this door?" Y/n dialogue. I appreciate that we can now press 'o' and have the nearest door auto-open, but I'm so used to hitting SPACE or 'y'. To hit 'o' I have to move the hand that's already using the numberpad keys, which makes the game so much less streamlined for non-automated exploration, especially for someone like me with physical strain issues. This coming from someone who chose their laptop based on whether it had a numpad specifically so they could keep on playing this game..!
    I'd accept that the generic resistance to this was down to laziness, but compared with other changes, doors are just such a frequently encountered event. I don't think we need a pop-up dialogue every time we want to change room.
    Is there no way to keep the old functionality where we were asked if we wanted to open a door we walked into and could just answer 'y'es? Even if it's only included as a toggleable option in the settings?

    On a similar note, while I love the new tilesets and enjoy the extra dimension (literally, heh) that they add to the game, I'm still looking for an old-school ASCII-style mouseless experience in general. To that end pop-up boxes which require the clicking of a 'Close' option are a frustration. They're attractive and helpful for those who miss commands but I find that they get in the way of play for the more experienced. It seems there's a way to disable at least some of these but it might be easier for them to fade out automatically after a few seconds - that way they perform the task of notification while still leaving their text contents in the message buffer, but they're not in the way?

    Also I'm finding the location of the pop-ups quite a hassle. They usually appear far off-centre but still need attention before they close. This has led to me repeatedly 'cancelling out' of a door-opening dialogue.

    Tactics, as well - I actually like the new 1-7 pop-up box system for choosing them, but it'd be great if we could retain the option for using the +/- version my fingers have learned, again, as a Settings toggle.

    Messing around with the settings to find solutions to the above (and failing, thus far), I've found a major issue with the auto-save setting. It says it defaults to 1000 when pressing ENTER and otherwise can be manually set from 1-100, or disabled using 0. This is inaccurate. It defaults to *100* when pressing ENTER, and even turning it off and on again won't restore the original setting after it has been changed the first time. Presumably the maximum amount was MEANT to be 1000 and the extra decimal point was left off accidentally? In any case, what this means for the game in general is that, if a player tries to change the auto-save frequency even once, they're stuck with a permanently over-frequent autosave from that point on. Considering the weight of the graphics engine on RAM as-is this quickly makes the game sluggish and nigh-unplayable.

    I note that the right-hand textbox during mode selection and character gen is still just a bit too small for some streams of text to fit inside. Would recommend extending the length of that box by another line or two.

    The new messages and new intro are things of beauty, but is there some way to prevent them from being automatically applied to non-standard game modes? Specifically the Challenge of the Week - it's really weird to be given an entire backstory of the Drakalor Chain and then to be told to 'go to Terinyo' before embarking on a quick CotW dungeon dive without any Terinyo in the game world there

    Please just choose a name for the original ADOM difficulty setting, the one with built-in achievements? Currently it's referred to in-game as Classic Mode, Hard Mode AND Roguelike Mode! I think Roguelike Mode is the best of these followed closely by Classic Mode but YMMV - however please choose one, and stick to that keystroke as the shortcut? After all you can always use the textbox to explain that said mode is harder than standard, or the original classic setting, or what a roguelike is..

    Having a difficulty setting called Standard Mode which DOESN'T offer achievements and is considered 'an easy entry into the world of ADOM' seems counter-intuitive, as well. Maybe calling that Exploration or Story Mode works better.

    Seconding aerol, too, regarding Ctrl+n m. Classic configuration might be super-old-hat now but it'd be great to have a config option for it nevertheless!

    Lastly, the CotW characters still all seem to default male. Maybe that's just my experience rather than an absolute but I've played about thirty and only one was female (because gender was selectable..).

    Hope you don't mind the issues I've raised here - let me know if I've missed anything or if any of these are helpful.
    Last edited by Kelibath; 11-04-2017 at 03:25 AM.
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    Thanks for all the feedback. There are many excellent points and I'll add them to the list of things to be addressed. For actual bugs (text not fitting into boxes, etc.) it would be very helpful to have bug reports :-)
    Thomas Biskup
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    And now a bit moe detailed :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    First off, kudos, everyone! I love the sheer amount of content in this new update - thank you Thomas! A good deal of it is very attractive and functional as well.
    The new introduction is lovely and the quests pre-Terinyo make a lot of sense. Nice work alphabetising the character gen lists, too! The new art - from animated sprites to backgrounds to new UI - is absolutely exquisite. A lot of the changes are slightly jarring at first but are clever and intuitive eventually; $ for payment as well as to check coin on hand is a really sensible one, for example. Automated exploration is still a little jarring with how the animations parse but you actually see the travel route now - no teleporting - which makes much more sense. I really love the new level up screen.
    Thanks - great to hear!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    Firstly, it frustrates me no end to be now unable to simply walk through and auto-open closed doorways using 'y' and the numpad keys via the "Open this door?" Y/n dialogue. I appreciate that we can now press 'o' and have the nearest door auto-open, but I'm so used to hitting SPACE or 'y'. To hit 'o' I have to move the hand that's already using the numberpad keys, which makes the game so much less streamlined for non-automated exploration, especially for someone like me with physical strain issues. This coming from someone who chose their laptop based on whether it had a numpad specifically so they could keep on playing this game..!
    I'd accept that the generic resistance to this was down to laziness, but compared with other changes, doors are just such a frequently encountered event. I don't think we need a pop-up dialogue every time we want to change room.
    Is there no way to keep the old functionality where we were asked if we wanted to open a door we walked into and could just answer 'y'es? Even if it's only included as a toggleable option in the settings?
    This actually is a bug that already has been fixed for 2.3.7. In the next release you will be able to press SPACE to select 'o'pen as the default. 'y' makes no sense as it is not offered. I could build it in as a hidden option but I am not sure if it's really worth it once SPACE is back to a useful reaction ;-)

    Let's try SPACE first and then see...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    On a similar note, while I love the new tilesets and enjoy the extra dimension (literally, heh) that they add to the game, I'm still looking for an old-school ASCII-style mouseless experience in general. To that end pop-up boxes which require the clicking of a 'Close' option are a frustration. They're attractive and helpful for those who miss commands but I find that they get in the way of play for the more experienced. It seems there's a way to disable at least some of these but it might be easier for them to fade out automatically after a few seconds - that way they perform the task of notification while still leaving their text contents in the message buffer, but they're not in the way?
    It might be an interesting idea to have a setting "mouseless" versus "mouse-driven" to configure the various individual settings. Can you please elaborate a bit about the specific boxes you find disturbing? I'm asking because I already have become so much accustomed to them that I no longer notice any difference ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    Also I'm finding the location of the pop-ups quite a hassle. They usually appear far off-centre but still need attention before they close. This has led to me repeatedly 'cancelling out' of a door-opening dialogue.
    Right now the popup boxes try to move to a screen location where they do not block the current area of attention (e.g. the door you are trying to open). I'm not sure if it is a good idea to e.g. simply center them... could be a setting, could not :-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    Tactics, as well - I actually like the new 1-7 pop-up box system for choosing them, but it'd be great if we could retain the option for using the +/- version my fingers have learned, again, as a Settings toggle.
    Sadly the current UI framework doesn't yet allow for that. Please submit an RFE and we might address it after finishing the crowdfunding promises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    Messing around with the settings to find solutions to the above (and failing, thus far), I've found a major issue with the auto-save setting. It says it defaults to 1000 when pressing ENTER and otherwise can be manually set from 1-100, or disabled using 0. This is inaccurate. It defaults to *100* when pressing ENTER, and even turning it off and on again won't restore the original setting after it has been changed the first time. Presumably the maximum amount was MEANT to be 1000 and the extra decimal point was left off accidentally? In any case, what this means for the game in general is that, if a player tries to change the auto-save frequency even once, they're stuck with a permanently over-frequent autosave from that point on. Considering the weight of the graphics engine on RAM as-is this quickly makes the game sluggish and nigh-unplayable.
    Fixed: http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=5598

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    I note that the right-hand textbox during mode selection and character gen is still just a bit too small for some streams of text to fit inside. Would recommend extending the length of that box by another line or two.

    The new messages and new intro are things of beauty, but is there some way to prevent them from being automatically applied to non-standard game modes? Specifically the Challenge of the Week - it's really weird to be given an entire backstory of the Drakalor Chain and then to be told to 'go to Terinyo' before embarking on a quick CotW dungeon dive without any Terinyo in the game world there

    Please just choose a name for the original ADOM difficulty setting, the one with built-in achievements? Currently it's referred to in-game as Classic Mode, Hard Mode AND Roguelike Mode! I think Roguelike Mode is the best of these followed closely by Classic Mode but YMMV - however please choose one, and stick to that keystroke as the shortcut? After all you can always use the textbox to explain that said mode is harder than standard, or the original classic setting, or what a roguelike is..

    Lastly, the CotW characters still all seem to default male. Maybe that's just my experience rather than an absolute but I've played about thirty and only one was female (because gender was selectable..).
    Excellent points! Would you mind submitting them as RFEs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    Having a difficulty setting called Standard Mode which DOESN'T offer achievements and is considered 'an easy entry into the world of ADOM' seems counter-intuitive, as well. Maybe calling that Exploration or Story Mode works better.
    We had many discussions (publicly and internally) about that. Our UI/UX tests so far show that new players (whom this primarily addresses) don't understand the more complicated names (like story mode, exploration mode - besides them being used up already) and avoid modes like 'Easy'. So to address new players 'Standard' _does_ seem to be the best choice. Despite not having achievements... but at least in our test games so far most new players just don't care about achievements initially - and the more competitive ones are very well able to select the roguelike mode ;-)

    Lastly, the CotW characters still all seem to default male. Maybe that's just my experience rather than an absolute but I've played about thirty and only one was female (because gender was selectable..).

    Lastly, the CotW characters still all seem to default male. Maybe that's just my experience rather than an absolute but I've played about thirty and only one was female (because gender was selectable..).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    Seconding aerol, too, regarding Ctrl+n m. Classic configuration might be super-old-hat now but it'd be great to have a config option for it nevertheless!
    Currently I lean to _not_ introducing too many customization options. IMHO if there still is a need for it, the graphical HUD still is not good enough. The problem with options is two-fold: (a) code maintenance increasingly becomes a nightmare due to all the special cases and (b) we just can't test all combinations which leads to more and more weird and annoying errors that only exist in order to accomodate a rather small (yet important) group of players - mostly the "old guard". This really is a difficult problem to solve but IMHO more options are not the answer. We rather should think about how to find a better experience for everyone with things like HUD & message positioning.
    MerkenMerken
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    Really glad you liked and found my comments helpful!


    Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin View Post
    For actual bugs (text not fitting into boxes, etc.) it would be very helpful to have bug reports :-)
    I reported the auto-save as a proper bug after posting this, but saw the textbox issue as more aesthetic, and difficult to repro when I only use one screen/CPU type. I will remember this, and submit the others requested


    Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin View Post
    Can you please elaborate a bit about the specific boxes you find disturbing? ..Right now the popup boxes try to move to a screen location where they do not block the current area of attention (e.g. the door you are trying to open). I'm not sure if it is a good idea to e.g. simply center them..
    Predominantly the door box, to be honest, but also helptext and a few other cases. Conversation bubbles seem fine. It probably is in part a matter of familiarity but mainly the boxes are just too off-centre for me to actually notice them straight away, therefore I find myself bashing keys futilely with the box open and/or closing the box before I've read it. Whilst the need to not conceal the actions they've appeared in response to is understandable they should at least be adjacent to said actions so that players notice them and more intuitively understand what they apply to. I'm not sure they should be centred directly but they need to at least be immediately visible from the PC central focal point. Perhaps adjust the code so they pop up adjacent to the PC but on the opposite side to whatever action was attempted?


    Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin View Post
    ..new players (whom this primarily addresses) don't understand the more complicated names (like story mode, exploration mode - besides them being used up already) and avoid modes like 'Easy'. So to address new players 'Standard' _does_ seem to be the best choice. Despite not having achievements
    Fair enough, I wasn't privy to this already having been discussed. I still think it's reasonable to go for a different set of names that intuitively link in to each other; from my design sensibilities this'd be "Casual" and "Classic", "Standard" and "Roguelike", or "Normal" and "Hard". I do recommend choosing just one name for "Hard/Roguelike/Classic" mode though either way!


    Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin View Post
    This actually is a bug that already has been fixed for 2.3.7. In the next release you will be able to press SPACE to select 'o'pen as the default. 'y' makes no sense as it is not offered. I could build it in as a hidden option but I am not sure if it's really worth it once SPACE is back to a useful reaction ;-)
    Good to hear! Please consider releasing another open Steam beta soon for the more impoverished backers so that we can navigate easily again using this option? Thank you either way

    When I mentioned 'y' as an option, I was actually referring to the "Do you want to open this door? Y/n" dialogue that walking into a door used to offer. Players would then either press 'y' to open the door or press SPACE to choose the default option presented (because in this case the default was 'y'). It was much easier than trying to 'l'ook at each door and then 'o'pen them directly. Warning messages for traps and locked/stuck doors made this a very nearly safe option - with the exception of the odd locked door trap that'd go off on first contact - and the tradeoff in playtime was more than worth the very occasional early character death. Hopefully reintegrating SPACE to choose 'o'pen as the default option will serve the same function! ..But I admit I miss my method of opening doors with my face, so if you ever do plan to include tweakable 'classic' commands that's one I'd probably toggle on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath
    Lastly, the CotW characters still all seem to default male. Maybe that's just my experience rather than an absolute but I've played about thirty and only one was female (because gender was selectable..).
    I didn't see a response to this in your previous thread (unless it was 'customisation options'?) and so am still not sure if it's a bug, an intended feature or somewhere in between?
    Just to clarify I'm not asking that gender be *selectable* in Challenges of the Week as apart from the hassle of coding this it also skews the starting stats between challenging players. Yet as a female player it is more immediately noticeable (and mildly irritating) to me that the 'random' CotW characters keep turning up as male - and having randomised gender would also add an extra level of variety and challenge, since there are some character builds very optimised to female PC survivability, and some quite the opposite.
    So I'm suggesting that the algorithm that randomly chooses the weekly PC race and class also chooses a random gender at closer to a 50/50 ratio - if it doesn't do this (successfully) already.


    Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin View Post
    Currently I lean to _not_ introducing too many customization options. IMHO if there still is a need for it, the graphical HUD still is not good enough..
    I have to respectfully disagree on this one simply because at some point it's not a matter of the graphics being a problem but simply the preference of many of your longer-term players for the classic ADOM experience .. but with all the new story content integrated and the remaining bugs ironed out. I used to prefer it too but the new UI is slowly winning me over. Yet there are plenty of other backers who seem to really want this option retained as a matter of nostalgia and continued affection for the game. And while the "old guard" is *relatively* small nowadays they're also the reason that ADOM succeeded in crowdfunding and remained popular for so long before that so the options which are needed not to alienate us (rather than just pander to us) are probably worth considering IMHO. Some people are already feeling alienated by removed config options. Case in point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Soirana View Post
    + a lot. Jesus, leaving at least an option to use old configuration for your games old time fans should not be that hard.

    Good thing, I played lot of other roguelikes lately so keystroke changes are somewhat passable, but I think skipping at least few versions might be in order for me. Doors and bubbles are literally driving me crazy.
    A refined, clean and fully functional 'Classic' HUD variant as a toggleable Settings option would thus be amazing for said people and a neat customisation for everyone else so long as it's not too much trouble to reimplement before the final build. I appreciate that you can't cater for every special case, but this one might be important/beloved enough to make exception for. It's your creation though, Creator!
    Last edited by Kelibath; 11-04-2017 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Added much more detail in answers
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    Ahh.. just saw you did suggest the CotW gender issue to be submitted as a bugfix. I'll go do that - but leave the above post as-is though for replies. Hopefully it'll go better than the last time I brought gender up XD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    .
    A refined, clean and fully functional 'Classic' HUD variant as a toggleable Settings option would thus be amazing for said people and a neat customisation for everyone else so long as it's not too much trouble to reimplement before the final build. I appreciate that you can't cater for every special case, but this one might be important/beloved enough to make exception for. It's your creation though, Creator!
    Actually especially not having speech bubbles and option boxes is a major hazzle. One of the earlier betas included an option to disable speech bubbles and that caused immense trouble because we either can decently format for bubbles or for message lines. And given the fact that we have thousands of places with dialogue (literally) it's impossible to manage two variants.

    Thus speech bubbles are here to stay.

    But what's the problem with them? I still fail to understand the problem?

    They look differently, yes. And IMHO that's good. Otherwise all the old functionality should be there... like completely skipping with ENTER, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    .
    I have to respectfully disagree on this one simply because at some point it's not a matter of the graphics being a problem but simply the preference of many of your longer-term players for the classic ADOM experience .. but with all the new story content integrated and the remaining bugs ironed out. I used to prefer it too but the new UI is slowly winning me over. Yet there are plenty of other backers who seem to really want this option retained as a matter of nostalgia and continued affection for the game. And while the "old guard" is *relatively* small nowadays they're also the reason that ADOM succeeded in crowdfunding and remained popular for so long before that so the options which are needed not to alienate us (rather than just pander to us) are probably worth considering IMHO. Some people are already feeling alienated by removed config options.
    Just to make that clear: I do not want to intentionally alienate anyone! Especially not the "old guard" because I totally understand their loyalty, value and immense benefits for the game. Really :-)

    Especially given the things the future will bring (watch the Roguelike Celebration, see https://roguelike.club).

    *BUT* adding all those configuration options *is* *bloody* *hard* because it creates more and more special cases we can't all test while we evolve the game.

    Thus for me it's a trade-off between being able to keep the game alive and keeping some older behaviours. And I still strongly believe that most of them are just customary but not important.

    And I'm totally open for RFEs and discussion threads about optimizing things - only the argument "I want it to behave like before just because I'm accustomed to it" is not good enough. If the older option was faster or whatever then I'm all game ;-)

    So please open RFEs with good arguments for things that in all your opinions are getting worse instead of better - and don't forget the rational arguments ;-)
    Thomas Biskup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelibath View Post
    .I didn't see a response to this in your previous thread (unless it was 'customisation options'?) and so am still not sure if it's a bug, an intended feature or somewhere in between?
    Just to clarify I'm not asking that gender be *selectable* in Challenges of the Week as apart from the hassle of coding this it also skews the starting stats between challenging players. Yet as a female player it is more immediately noticeable (and mildly irritating) to me that the 'random' CotW characters keep turning up as male - and having randomised gender would also add an extra level of variety and challenge, since there are some character builds very optimised to female PC survivability, and some quite the opposite.
    So I'm suggesting that the algorithm that randomly chooses the weekly PC race and class also chooses a random gender at closer to a 50/50 ratio - if it doesn't do this (successfully) already.
    And here I totally agree. Please file an RFE - there probably something is wrong and it should be improved!
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    Hi, thanks,Kelibath for making a new thread; the old was a bit, well, it kinda felt dead, lol.

    I'd like to first commend TB on the job done on 2.3.6, it's awesome! so many things done so well I'd be here for hours on all of it, but I'd rather complain about stuff XD, and maybe I have some insight and ideas you might like!

    As a relatively newcomer to ADOM I'm not accustomed to to old keybindings, also because I heavily edited the KBD file for my personal tastes once I learned the game a bit. Being that there ARE so many combinations I' would like to suggest a forward solution. This stems from the modification of the 'h'andle action in 2.3.6. I now use it to to move up and down stairs as it is easier than 'ctrl+< or >', so inline with that, and this is a personal opinion, I think that this command can be used for a wide variety of situations, i.e. opening doors (yes, ik, door handles lol), picking up items, and quick searching to name a few. To extend this thought 'h'andle could be personally customizable in the keybindings file to fit your particular playstyle, meaning that 'h' can be bound to multiple keybindings and performs the first available action on that list as well as those that are predefined.

    Something that has irked me since I began playing has been the inability to sell all the items I've dropped in the shop all at once. I understand that sometimes you want to be cautious and review your sell costs for obvious reasons, but when I've been dicking around for 5000 turns on a gnome necromancer with the strength of atlas on the whole time I find that spending several minutes picking through all the items to drop (the fun part) and then to needing to confirm each individual piece I've chosen a second time becomes very tedious(the not fun part), and on top of that the speech bubbles added an EXTRA confirmation bubble, LMAO! Maybe a 'yes to all' option in the dialog, then tally and count in the background one by one, and if the shop runs out of money a dialogue that pops up saying "sorry, I couldn't afford all of the items"? On a side a note, I've bought out several shops doing this without selling all that I had intended. Is there a way to to know when the shop is about to run out of gold, or streamline the the selling interaction in a way that prevents spending excessive IRL time picking items that won't be bought(dropping an item without leaving the drop screen?)?

    Though I appreciate the extra information from the arena master, as many times I've wondered how many battles I had left, thank you for that, the arena now has TWO extra dialogue prompts, for a total of four key presses to go through making it quite a bit tedious. Can these be compressed into one dialogue, to return to the glory days(two days ago) of 'ctrl+c', 'y'?

    I have noticed that the mouse-over tool tip is much more responsive but still feels like it gets in the way more often than not. Jittering the mouse to drop focus constantly pushes me away from wanting to use mouse controls. Maybe consolidating this feature with 't'arget information and docking this "information" screen near the minimap?

    Finally, could 'r'ead be added to the right-click menu when selecting an enemy? I've been playing around with book casters to great effect and would like to read books more actively with mouse. Much like my idea with the customizable 'h'andle action being able to populate right-click with personally preferable actions through editing the kBD file, also similar to the auto-pickup option, would greatly streamline gameplay, as well as reduce headaches in the future.

    I hope you find some of this useful and or to your liking, and I apologize if not. I can't wait to see what's in store for 2.3.7 and 3.0!

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    Quote Originally Posted by adom-admin View Post
    Just to make that clear: I do not want to intentionally alienate anyone! Especially not the "old guard" because I totally understand their loyalty, value and immense benefits for the game. Really :-)
    Especially given the things the future will bring (watch the Roguelike Celebration, see https://roguelike.club).
    *BUT* adding all those configuration options *is* *bloody* *hard* because it creates more and more special cases we can't all test while we evolve the game.
    Thus for me it's a trade-off between being able to keep the game alive and keeping some older behaviours. And I still strongly believe that most of them are just customary but not important.
    That's completely understandable. Having to cut down on which configuration options remain in the game makes a lot of sense.
    I'm simply saying that from what I'm seeing here on the site in terms of player feedback, the two highest-value concessions (in terms of the number of older players who'd like them retained and the strength of that opinion) are the option to customise keybindings, and continued optional access to the original UI layout and style as per CTRL+n m. Yes, the UI is preferential - but it's also very well-loved, so I think it's worth considering.

    The quote you've made to my previous comment featured this same UI preference, not speech bubbles. I actually quite like the speech bubbles..?

    The Roguelike Celebration sounds fun
    Last edited by Kelibath; 11-13-2017 at 05:55 PM.
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