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Thread: Pickpocketing being a chore and stealth in general

  1. #1
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    Default Pickpocketing being a chore and stealth in general

    There was interesting discussion about pickpocketing quest being a chore/grindfest in a thread about picking one item up from a stack, so decided to start a separate as I believe this is an interesting topic deserving its own thread. My own 2cc:
    While it will probably never happen in ADOM, it could be something that could be implemented in ADOM 2? Active stealth. All races/classes that have stealth skill apparently are all the time slowly sneaking around corners, keeping to the shadows all the time (as much as it hardly ever works no matter skill level). Not to bring other games into this discussion, but in pretty much real life you have to invest into not being seen, you move slower, crouch to have smaller profile etc etc. One should be required to turn sneaking/stealth on in order to have its benefits. And those benefits should also include much higher chance of picking someone's pocket (or stabbing them in the back). Would make assassin/thief gameplay be more sneak up on mob, do your thing, run away to be able to approach second time, speed being main factor.
    As a side note, pickpocketing should not be punishable by death by all the villagers/townsfolk, let the sheriff/guards charge you and have some kind of penalty - pay a huge fine, spend a 1k turns in jail. But pickpocketting non-monsters seems like something that should be a thing, that farmer is much more likely to have sold some plants and have change in their pocket than a random troll in a dungeon. With border village there seems like more and more possible victims are there in the game, yet totally not really as the risk is just absurdly high, might as well go for stealing all things from the shop

  2. #2
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    Active stealth. All races/classes that have stealth skill apparently are all the time slowly sneaking around corners, keeping to the shadows all the time (as much as it hardly ever works no matter skill level).
    This already exists in adom, with 100 stealth you can kill stuff very near other monsters that wont aggro you, most noticable in tension rooms.
    Outside tension rooms it mostly affects backstab but also allows you to walk straight past some monsters.
    My wild guess is that high dex also helps for stealth (or that mediocre dex is a hindrance).
    While it is a far less powerful than invis, invis and stealth seems to complement each other.

    Would make assassin/thief gameplay be more sneak up on mob, do your thing, run away to be able to approach second time, speed being main factor.
    I think multiple backstabs were possible in old versions but it got nerfed out.
    Invis and darkness made a lot of things very trivial and to make things better monsters that you have hit are now aware of you.
    Probably an exception if they are blinded.

    Maaaaaaaaybe still possible if you have high speed and low energy attacks to get a second backstab to land directly after the first, anyone else know for certain?

    As a side note, pickpocketing should not be punishable by death by all the villagers/townsfolk, let the sheriff/guards charge you and have some kind of penalty - pay a huge fine, spend a 1k turns in jail. But pickpocketting non-monsters seems like something that should be a thing, that farmer is much more likely to have sold some plants and have change in their pocket than a random troll in a dungeon. With border village there seems like more and more possible victims are there in the game, yet totally not really as the risk is just absurdly high, might as well go for stealing all things from the shop
    Other than a slight align hit there is no penalty for pickpocketing even in friendly villages.

    A failed pickpocket attempt however is treated like daylight robbery, a fine and a smaller penalty is a very modern western world way of looking at it, cutting off limbs or worse are things not that far away in history (and still a part in some countries today).

    But by all means, make an RFE (here http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?projectid=2) where you outline more precise what you want and you can possibly get it in this version of adom.
    (atleast I think anyone is allowed to make an RFE)

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by blunk View Post
    This already exists in adom, with 100 stealth you can kill stuff very near other monsters that wont aggro you, most noticable in tension rooms.
    Outside tension rooms it mostly affects backstab but also allows you to walk straight past some monsters.
    My wild guess is that high dex also helps for stealth (or that mediocre dex is a hindrance).
    While it is a far less powerful than invis, invis and stealth seems to complement each other.
    It doesn't exist, people are running all over with no energy/speed penalty, stealth is just like a passive, nothing more than another stat like charisma or appearance that is checked on-action if you backstabbed a monster or just attacked them normally (and passively while moving towards them I guess, still as far from active sneaking as can be). With active sneaking you spend more energy/stamina/speed to move more slowly but to have a chance at surprising a monster with attack (or pick pocketing them etc).

    I think multiple backstabs were possible in old versions but it got nerfed out.
    Invis and darkness made a lot of things very trivial and to make things better monsters that you have hit are now aware of you.
    Probably an exception if they are blinded.

    Maaaaaaaaybe still possible if you have high speed and low energy attacks to get a second backstab to land directly after the first, anyone else know for certain?
    Two backstabs before someone realises they got stabbed? That sounds like a bug not a feature. Again, don't want to pull examples form other games, but assassin gameplay if not as currently in ADOM - do a single hit slay, usually depends on attack and disengage (there are tons of options already existing in adom, from confusion traps, slow monster, mind blasts, to ventriloquism).

    Other than a slight align hit there is no penalty for pickpocketing even in friendly villages.

    A failed pickpocket attempt however is treated like daylight robbery, a fine and a smaller penalty is a very modern western world way of looking at it, cutting off limbs or worse are things not that far away in history (and still a part in some countries today).

    But by all means, make an RFE (here http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?projectid=2) where you outline more precise what you want and you can possibly get it in this version of adom.
    (atleast I think anyone is allowed to make an RFE)
    I'm quite aware of what RFEs are, this was mostly for discussion of the thief quest that got 2 pages in a thread devoted to something different entirely. In theory every poster could raise and RFE, it's probably much better for people to throw their ideas out and maybe some would solidify into an RFE that has enough backing to be at least considered in a new engine, as reworking stealth for ADOM 1 has exactly 0 chance of happening

  4. #4
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    Example of a thief guilds quest that isn't grindfest spam pickpocket until you hit it:

    Raid the merchant house and steal the merchants seal

    Ideally merchant's house has corridors with side alleys where one can wait for the guards to pass (cone of vision for ADOM2? not sure how it would work with ASCII unless highlighting parts visible by any known monster, maybe this could), maybe with interactable object to steer them into a corner to check, giving more time to sneak through. Should still be doable brute force, just hard enough that new players are better off going the stealthy way (thief guild after all). A desk in last room where you get the seal and then just exit.

    Few things that could be cool would be light/darkness interaction (again, not happening in ADOM1, as we have only dungeon darkness and black-darkness) - turning lamps or torches off to make guards see less far, noise - throwing a rock/dagger down a corridor so guard goes see what that was about (again, impossible with ADOM1 pretty much).
    A simplified version of that with just a few npcs going up and down a corridor should be pretty workable in ADOM 1 engine. Noise/light/awareness of mobs is definitely something that ADOM2 could use if it is to have a good stealth basis

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by szopin View Post
    There was interesting discussion about pickpocketing quest being a chore/grindfest in a thread about picking one item up from a stack, so decided to start a separate as I believe this is an interesting topic deserving its own thread. My own 2cc:
    While it will probably never happen in ADOM, it could be something that could be implemented in ADOM 2? Active stealth. All races/classes that have stealth skill apparently are all the time slowly sneaking around corners, keeping to the shadows all the time (as much as it hardly ever works no matter skill level). Not to bring other games into this discussion, but in pretty much real life you have to invest into not being seen, you move slower, crouch to have smaller profile etc etc. One should be required to turn sneaking/stealth on in order to have its benefits. And those benefits should also include much higher chance of picking someone's pocket (or stabbing them in the back). Would make assassin/thief gameplay be more sneak up on mob, do your thing, run away to be able to approach second time, speed being main factor.
    As a side note, pickpocketing should not be punishable by death by all the villagers/townsfolk, let the sheriff/guards charge you and have some kind of penalty - pay a huge fine, spend a 1k turns in jail. But pickpocketting non-monsters seems like something that should be a thing, that farmer is much more likely to have sold some plants and have change in their pocket than a random troll in a dungeon. With border village there seems like more and more possible victims are there in the game, yet totally not really as the risk is just absurdly high, might as well go for stealing all things from the shop
    Farmers don't have gold.

    When you get to Terinyo, Tywat gives you a quest to kill the raider lord who has been pillaging the area. The money you get for your quest, given by Tywat, is probably all the wealth that town has.
    Last edited by Jeremiah; 05-06-2018 at 02:16 PM.
    AKA: Jbc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    Farmers don't have gold.

    When you get to Terinyo, Tywat gives you a quest to kill the raider lord who has been pillaging the area. The money you get for your quest, given by Tywat, is probably all the wealth that town has.
    Given the bounties for bandit/outlaw/cutpurse/etc corpses clearly no... Unless they use mentioned corpses to make rations to sell at village shop. I guess, that is a possibility...
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soirana View Post
    Given the bounties for bandit/outlaw/cutpurse/etc corpses clearly no... Unless they use mentioned corpses to make rations to sell at village shop. I guess, that is a possibility...
    The people of Teryino are CANNIBALS!!! - Theory has spawned!!! lol.

    "you are the only cactus in the garden of my life" Gomez - Adams Family

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soirana View Post
    Given the bounties for bandit/outlaw/cutpurse/etc corpses clearly no... Unless they use mentioned corpses to make rations to sell at village shop. I guess, that is a possibility...
    Sorry, still not buying this concept of farmers with pockets lined with gold.
    AKA: Jbc
    1st win no spoiler & no cheating version 1.1.1
    Favorite Race Class Combo: Darkling Farmer

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostjghost View Post
    The people of Teryino are CANNIBALS!!! - Theory has spawned!!! lol.
    You know... in Adom farmers have class power to turn corpses (including humanoids) into rations, right?
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

  10. #10
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    Yep. And when you help the village elder he gives you lower prices in the food store.

    "you are the only cactus in the garden of my life" Gomez - Adams Family

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