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Thread: typos, actual game events, and permadeath

  1. #1

    Default typos, actual game events, and permadeath

    Yesterday I lost another character (promising level 40 wizard with all ball spells, archery, find weakness, and true aim, who only got hit once clearing the earth temple and had just reached the mana temple) to....accidentally casting a magic missile down instead of over. Zapped himself to death.

    I *like* that ADOM has permadeath. It makes decisions feel more important, and makes successes feel like greater achievement. I don't at all mind deaths from game events. Vortex taking out a promising early character; surprise enemy in a mixed tension room or vault; being wrong about whether a character is ready to take on steel golems; having a character slaughtered by the fire or mana orb guardian; trying something risky or making a poor decision and quickly dying because of it. All totally fine. But to me, it feels very different when a death is caused by an interface error. I'm primarily making this post because I'm curious whether other players also feel that distinction, or if to others, typos feel similar to in-game mistakes.

    In my perfect world, I'd play a version of ADOM that had the option of (a) going back a single keystroke (maybe a capped number of times per game) and (b) logging that it had done so. So with this character, if he didn't die from something else, I could post as a victory-with-recovery-from-one-typo, with a little note about what had happened.

    I think I do take longer to play than others (my one victory had 29 hours of playtime, I think). As I'm sure is the case for many others, I have limited hours to play--with work and family responsibilities. That makes it feel.....lame....to have lost that promising character to a typo, not to an in-game event.

    I know that there's the option to play with permadeath off overall. I guess maybe my best option would be to play in that, but any time a character dies for in-game reasons, quit/delete/eliminate that character, so that it's only for typo-recovery purposes. It just feels a little lame to have all of my characters "not in real ADOM" for the one-in-thirty characters (or whatever it actually is) who encounters a lethal typo.

    So, I'm just curious how other players feel about this!

  2. #2

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    I know the feeling. And I think excusing typos is mostly OK, although I can't really see building in a remedy. But I would point out that on your machine you have access to all the running processes, one of which is ADOM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    The majority of my dumb deaths come when I have been playing too long, lose focus. If I go into zombie ADOM mode, I'm more likely to not notice the stone ooze and get the paralysis cure.

    Better to save the game, come back to it next week.

  4. #4

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    Online chess players are quite familiar with losing due to a single mouseslip. Even in poker I've more-than-once accidentally clicked "all-in".

    If it's an interface error -- that is, if the interface can be improve to avoid such error -- you should recommend the improvement.

    If it can't be improved then it's not an interface error, then if you really want to blame something, it's has to be an operator error. I'd make the best of it.

    In my current game I sacrificed my bless ring of fire. I'll own it. Apparently my character suffers from bout of religious fervor. Or holy possession? Insomnia, then. Apparently sleep-sac'cing is a thing. Sometimes I just doze off an offer my most valuable possessions to the higher power!

    A strategy game is defined by the opportunity to make mistakes. If no mistakes can be made, the actions are not strategic, they are trivial. Well, this game is certainly not trival at times, and I reckon that's why we play it.
    Last edited by Esoteric Rogue; 06-25-2018 at 11:27 PM. Reason: spelling matters!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Novosibirsk, Russia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Rogue View Post
    If it's an interface error -- that is, if the interface can be improve to avoid such error -- you should recommend the improvement.

    If it can't be improved then it's not an interface error, then if you really want to blame something, it's has to be an operator error. I'd make the best of it.

    A strategy game is defined by the opportunity to make mistakes. If no mistakes can be made, the actions are not strategic, they are trivial. Well, this game is certainly not trival at times, and I reckon that's why we play it.
    It's definitely an interface error. The point is that when you choose the direction of the spell you cast, there is no delay. You just have to deal with all the power of your spell. That is in contradiction with nearly all the other processes in ADOM like Door Opening, Kicking, Missile shooting/throwing, Chatting, Alchemy, and so on. Why then asking every time a man wants to show out his anger by kicking the wall ("Do you really want it? It may hurt you") and allow one to operate the mighty arcane forces without any warning? This is so like putting warning signs on every spoon ("Operating it the wrong way may cause you serious damage") but being completely OK with everybody shooting guns.

    The key is ofc the idea, that on the battlefield, which ADOM truly is, the battlemagic is a normal part of life as the gun shooting IRL. Yet the situation then somebody puts his head in front of the machine-gun and then pulls the trigger shouldn't happen freely. The real guns are designed in the way to avoid this possibility (long barrel, overall gun geometry). However ADOM interface has an actual safe-block with which shooting yourself is impossible. There is the dialog preventing one from misdirecting Magic Missile?

    Dungeon Crawl has the beautiful option to fix that flaw ("Casting spell in this direction will hurt you. Do you wish to proceed [y/N]") etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    This is a gameplay challenge, not an exercise in tedium.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    701

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebrather View Post
    It's definitely an interface error. The point is that when you choose the direction of the spell you cast, there is no delay. You just have to deal with all the power of your spell. That is in contradiction with nearly all the other processes in ADOM like Door Opening, Kicking, Missile shooting/throwing, Chatting, Alchemy, and so on. Why then asking every time a man wants to show out his anger by kicking the wall ("Do you really want it? It may hurt you") and allow one to operate the mighty arcane forces without any warning? This is so like putting warning signs on every spoon ("Operating it the wrong way may cause you serious damage") but being completely OK with everybody shooting guns.
    Huh? Of the things you listed, only shooting missiles at non-hostiles/self and kicking statues/self/non-hostiles have any safety measures. Kicking a wall only involves a prompt for the direction, same as casting magic missile. Chatting won't even prompt for a direction if you can only see one adjacent monster. Door opening/closing via o and c works similar to chatting. Alchemy doesn't do anything apart from ask for the ingredients, and will happily explode with no warning if you mess up your recipe.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    I definitely don't agree with "Go back one keypress" as a solution. This would basically allow you to prevent most/all deaths, honestly. Get killed by a monster? Go back one keypress and heal yourself or teleport away. Get killed by a trap? Go back one keypress and use that wand of knocking you forgot about. Get crushed by SoA failure? Go back one keypress and reapply it. Etc.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
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    10

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    Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer View Post
    I definitely don't agree with "Go back one keypress" as a solution. This would basically allow you to prevent most/all deaths, honestly. Get killed by a monster? Go back one keypress and heal yourself or teleport away. Get killed by a trap? Go back one keypress and use that wand of knocking you forgot about. Get crushed by SoA failure? Go back one keypress and reapply it. Etc.
    Not much further than save/load, though.

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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Europe
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzpa88 View Post
    Yesterday I lost another character (promising level 40 wizard with all ball spells, archery, find weakness, and true aim, who only got hit once clearing the earth temple and had just reached the mana temple) to....accidentally casting a magic missile down instead of over. Zapped himself to death.

    I *like* that ADOM has permadeath. It makes decisions feel more important, and makes successes feel like greater achievement. I don't at all mind deaths from game events. Vortex taking out a promising early character; surprise enemy in a mixed tension room or vault; being wrong about whether a character is ready to take on steel golems; having a character slaughtered by the fire or mana orb guardian; trying something risky or making a poor decision and quickly dying because of it. All totally fine. But to me, it feels very different when a death is caused by an interface error. I'm primarily making this post because I'm curious whether other players also feel that distinction, or if to others, typos feel similar to in-game mistakes.

    In my perfect world, I'd play a version of ADOM that had the option of (a) going back a single keystroke (maybe a capped number of times per game) and (b) logging that it had done so. So with this character, if he didn't die from something else, I could post as a victory-with-recovery-from-one-typo, with a little note about what had happened.

    I think I do take longer to play than others (my one victory had 29 hours of playtime, I think). As I'm sure is the case for many others, I have limited hours to play--with work and family responsibilities. That makes it feel.....lame....to have lost that promising character to a typo, not to an in-game event.

    I know that there's the option to play with permadeath off overall. I guess maybe my best option would be to play in that, but any time a character dies for in-game reasons, quit/delete/eliminate that character, so that it's only for typo-recovery purposes. It just feels a little lame to have all of my characters "not in real ADOM" for the one-in-thirty characters (or whatever it actually is) who encounters a lethal typo.

    So, I'm just curious how other players feel about this!
    It's a single player game, you're allowed to play it anyway you want.
    I did some save scumming with my first win and have done it on occation later to test stuff, whatever you enjoy.
    When you've won a few times losing a promising character doesn't sting as much and you probably just roll with it.

    29 hours is a rather long but not extreme, you need to take your time for the first wins because lack of knowledge and to avoid mistakes.

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