So Sayeth The Creator

[vogonpoet]

Meh, death is death.

Might as well have a IDKFA cheat code built into game if you don't have permadeath.

/a WoW with 65535 charges perhaps???

[Ars]

Don't worry, I didn't. ;-P

Well, if we have permadeaths, then at least make a savegame option, that removes say 1/3 of your score each time you die? Just an idea...

You can still save-scum if you like, getting a saving option into the game implies that that's the correct way to play it, which it is not.

[smigbob]

Yeah, I guess you guys are right, it should stay a roguelike. But will save-scumming even be possible with JADE? Since I have no idea how Java works, might it be a wee bit different?

P.S.: I have never save-scummed with ADOM. Only used Cheat Engine. Which still can't save you from a moloch and black unicorn ganging up on you in DH:2. :-P

[Laukku]

Not directly related to JADE though, but here is another page written by TB that may be interesting, and is (propably) not widely known.

[Xanthine]

/a WoW with 65535 charges perhaps???

Why stop at 2^16-1? MAX_INT, gogogo.

[pblack]

This is going to be a LONG post on skills and classes....


I would look at the "totally class-free" approach very carefully, because there are other games out there that have similar systems and I personally think they become eventually boring. The best example I can give is the Elder Scrolls series.... morrowind espacially (in oblivion they minimized this effect, but it's still very much present). One thing that happens with the game is that if you want...you can become the strongest mage, with the strongest combat skills and strongest thieving skills all at the same time! If it's not implemented with caution that could happen to JADE, in one of those quotes from TB he says that you could become a necromancer/assassin/paladin if you wanted. The problem is that if JADE won?t have a level limit, you could become indefinitely strong in every especialization...wich would destroy the idea of the hero that is "good at somethings and bad at others".

I still think that the game should allow for a free interpretation of what you would want to become....like being a strong beserk fighter with good spellcasting abilities.... but i would feel very sad to get to the end of my 5th JADE game and realize that my character is basically the same as it were the other 4 times. The problem with the "no limits" approach is that everyone would try to be proficient in everything. The multiclassing in AD&D is level capped and that's why it works. You can become the best mage there ever was... but you won't accomplish it if you try to be the best rogue as well.

I'm not saying JADE should use level capping, but a skill based system should be carefully implemented. I personally like the different challenges of playing with different classes with different limitations but a no-class system can be equally succesful and fulfilling, it just has to be thought-through.

Now to sugestions in that matter...

I've came up with a system to put all this to practice, but it's just a sugestion, the point is to not let the game become boring over time.

First, since the game is going to be based mainly on skills I would expect to have a lot more skills available, with the current number of skills in ADoM this system i'm proposing becomes useless.

Then, with that obsevation made, skills should be classified under groups like Melee, Magic, Stealth/Agility, general/misc, etc (wathever is applicable to the game). And then lets pick a PC with a broad skill repertoire.

PC has the following skills:

Two weapon combat - 50
"Parry" [fictional combat skill] - 50
Necromancy - 30
Stealth - 30
Pick locks - 60
Swimming - 70

Althou this PC has skills from all the different strings, the sum of all the points he has in his combat skills is greater than the sum of any other skill string (Two W. Combat + Parry = 100 pts against 90 pts for Stealth + pick locks (Agility), 30 for necromancy (magic) or 70 in swimming (general). This PC is now specialized in combat. This does not bring any special consequences other than the fact that now he has a bonus in every combat skill increase he receives and a penalty for every magic skill increase. The Stealth skills increases would remain unaffected because they are within a 10 pts distance from the actual "favourite skills". The type of bonus or penalty could be a simple +1, +2, -1, -2, etc added to the dice rolled for skill value increase (or some other method... whatever works for the game engine).

Should this PC gain another 10 points in his "agility" skills and make it 100 pts like the combat skills, both skill increases would have no bonuses or penalties and if his necromancy still is under 90 pts, it continues with the penalties it had before.

Now, with a system like this, a PC could very quickly reach maximum proficiency in some skills making the early-mid game somewhat unbalanced, so the bonuses should be small but significant, but the penalties shouldn't! For this PC it should be hard to increase magic skill points....and the further he specializes in combat or agility (and the gap between those skill points and the magic skill points grows) the harder it should be. Hard enough so that with a 200 or 300 pts gap between the greater and lesser sum it should be a small challenge for the PC to be able to gain any skill points whatsoever in that area.

Another feature of this system would be small penalties for the skill increases of those that have three or more skill groups sums within a 10 pts range, for example, a char with 107 combat 97 magic and 105 agility. This PC has almost identical knowledge of this skill areas (remember that there doesn't have to be just 3 skill groups + the general...there can be as many as there are classes in adom) and since he is almost equally proficient in more than 2 skill areas he is going to get a small penalty for every skill area above 2 within the 10 pts range. For example: this char mentioned above would have a minor -1 penalty in all his increases for those skill areas...if there were another skill area in the range..making it 4 skill areas that he is mostly proficient in, the penalty would be -2...and so on. Meaning that a character that tries to be very proficient in too many areas would have a very hard time being really good at any of them, BUT this should have its perks too. One that come to mind is that the penalties for those trying to specialize in up to 3 or 4 skill areas are less severe than the penalties faced by a highly specialized combat PC trying to build up his rookie magic skills (a gap of 200 or 300 as metioned above). This would bring the player to a decision in the beginning of every game. Do I want a good character earlier or do I want a very versatile character towards the end-game? Note however that trying to specialize in more than 4 or so areas (I would prefer 3, but I'm trying to be as broad as possible here) shouldn't be practical for most players in the sense that the penalties would really become overwhelming (just maybe not for those that play the same character for years).

Now there's the other side. While being the jack of all trades brings some perks along (like being a barbarian in pure beserk mode with mental shield activated!) there should be incentive for the ones that want to play a more traditional character. The main feature to enchance those players experience that I can think of is to make it possible for them to have skills above the maximum 100, but from 101 pts on the skill would behave differently, it would be like the PC doesn't have anything else to LEARN about that task but he starts mastering it and starts developing his own methods around that ability...he becomes a "creator" other than a "student" of that art. And this means that he wouldn't get any more points of DV for dodge or to-hit/to-damage bonuses from two w. combat but he would get a special power related to that skill. Like a 100% certain dodge for X turns where X increases with the skill points above 100, or a 100% concealment for x turns for master stealth skill that allow for perfect concealment even if the monster had already seen you. And those kind of things... like perfect pick pocketing (always gets something, or as the thief class power... better stuff). The ability to build skills above 100 pts should only come to those that have a 100-200 even 300 pts gap between their favourite skills and their second ones. So you can actually have 100 stealth while being a pure barbarian, you just have to have 2 or 3 combat skills maxed out in order to have the necessary skill points "gap" (and your special ability to enhance your skills to over 100 pts would only be possible in your combat skills of course, even if you have other skills maxed out).
Also, once you cross the 100 pts line for any skill in a determined skill group you can't cross it in any other skill of any other skill group = you just get special powers in the skills of your favourite skill area.

Now to what i think is almost the last part. the "general" skills. Those are skills of general use like haggling, gardening, swimming, listening, survival, etc. Those skills are not subject to any penalties or bonuses no matter what is the rank of the other skills, but you can master them to over 100 pts like any other skill group. And the thing about those skills is that some of their special over-100pts powers could enable the PCs, among other things, to acess places otherwise impossible to get to (obviously with great treasure... and danger!) The payoff to specializing in general skills would be that once you master (eq. getting it to over 100 pts) all of them, you are able to master up to 5 other skills from any of the other groups! Note that the penalties to the other skills still stand...so it could be fairly difficult to rise a skill in a poorly developed skill group (say magic in the 50's while your "general" skills rank in the 600's) but it should be extremely attractive for anyone willing to make the arduous journey. While making the game considerably longer in order to achieve this result, the payoff is close to the all-powerful character that an unthought skill-based system would make easily possible.

[pblack]

Well, that's basically it. It's long and confusing, I know. But for those that had the patience to read and try to comprehend it, I would like your inputs. But again, all this is just a random sugestion, because my main concern is that the skill based system could allow for over-the-top super characters and just those willing to police themselves not to pump the PC with every skill in the book could get the same joy as in adom.
Someone said that if a save function would to be implemented it would imply that that's the correct way to play the game, and it isnt, and I agree. If a completely free skill system is implemented it would bring the idea that you should be as proficient as you can in every skill you can. And I don't think that's the idea. I proposed a system that still allows for multi-skilled characters but with lots of requirements to do so without being too arbitrary (at least i think =P) but any other ideas, simpler ones perhabs , are always welcome.

PS: maybe this should be posted in the classes topic, but this discussioon was here so I thought it would fit better.

[pblack]

Afterthoughts:

- Maybe the special over-100pts could be relative to the skill GROUP and not the skill itself, rendering useless the idea of more than 100 pts in a single skill. Example: an "arcane magic" specialized pc reaches 100 pts in his SUM of "arcane magic" skills, therefore, he gets a special power (a lowly one to start...) and it would go on like this every 100 pts in the skill group. This kinda simplifies the whole system, and perhabs it makes it possible for a char to have various special powers from all skill groups, but it would require a cap of a maximum number of skill powers since otherwise it would pratically be equal to the free-skill system I'm trying to prevent. It's also beneficial in the sense that it would be very easy to realize that to become the BEST in anything, you have to forget about being good at anything else. But maybe it's too severe in that aspect to be applicable.