Stealth in JADE

[baalak]

Greetings to you, Creator, and to all JADE fans. I am Baalak, called dreamer, and I have joined the forum
with joy in my heart after reading through the JADE development blag. I am thrilled to have a way, other than postcards, to speak with the Creator and those who follow His creation, and I hope to help the community inspire the best out of JADE.

Thinking about ADoM, one of my favorite games of all time, has gotten me wondering. How could I make the game better? What improvements could be made? I quickly came to one facet of ADoM I always found lacking, and that was the Stealth skill.

Stealth, as most of us know, is a passive skill in ADoM, and presumably JADE as well. This means that you're always trying to be stealthy, if you have the skill, at all. Stealth only seems useful to those who
can Backstab or Find Weaknesses in an enemy's defenses, but there is a whole other aspect to the skill, an active aspect involved with evasion of enemies, which ADoM has never played with.

Standing proudly next to ADoM amongst my favorite games is Thief, by Looking Glass Studios, in which stealth plays an enormous tactical role, your character can only overcome obstacles easily through deception and evasion, and confrontation leads swiftly to death. I would love to see stealth playing an active roll in JADE, allowing you to avoid a fight without having to resort to invisibility or simply running. I, for one, would cherish the opportunity to challenge myself to a game of JADE where I never attack a foe who is aware of me, and while such tactics are possible in ADoM, it is not a thrilling proposition.

I regret I have no suggestions for how such gameplay could be implemented, but I believe it has a place in the JADE experience, given JADE's lineage and predecessors. I shouldn't have to be a 50th level Thief to trust in my ability to hide, as long as I'm adjacent to a wall, and I ask that JADE provide opportunities to make use of cover and concealment as us stealthy players make our way through Ancardia.

Mr. Biskup, thank you for all you have done, and thank you for giving me the hope that my ideas have a place in your creation.

- Baalak nalzar-aung.

[Ankherias]

I agree with the assessment that thieves should be able to hide earlier, by the time they are level 50 sources of invisibility have already been available for a considerable time.

As for Thief-like (the game) gameplay I would prefer not, I think ADOM provides adequate stealth gameplay as it is.

[Dougy]

I suspect most characters carry around large amounts of equipment and armour and so on, and stealth therefore should have a reasonably small effect.

[adom-admin]

As stealth is a skill in JADE it already plays a more prominent role rigt from the beginning. Nonetheless you suggested a nice number of improvements that I will add at some point. Thanks!

[IronJelly]

I agree with the assessment that thieves should be able to hide earlier, by the time they are level 50 sources of invisibility have already been available for a considerable time.

As for Thief-like (the game) gameplay I would prefer not, I think ADOM provides adequate stealth gameplay as it is.

IIRC, they are not stealthed, after 50, they are invisible when next to a wall, greatly reducing their reliance on sources of invisiblity.

I always liked invisibility in ADOM because i feel it should be more than just improved stealth. Crawl has always had a problem with this regard, and even nethack didn't really offer much in the stealth department. JADE would be different (in a welcome way) if stealth could optionally become a defining attribute of a character.

[Nearsighted]

I agree with the assessment that thieves should be able to hide earlier, by the time they are level 50 sources of invisibility have already been available for a considerable time.

True, but being able to avoid the hunger penalty is a great advantage, too.

[electric_wizard]

I'd like to see stealth working in a similar way to tactics.

Turning up you stealth level should reduce your speed. As your stealth skill increases you would not only improve your ability to remain undetected, but also be able to move faster while sneaking.

[spectre]

Greetings fellow JADE&ADOM forumers!

@electric_wizard's suggestion

Good one. I think it could blend nicely in what we already have in ADOM.

For example, one way of thinking about it would be to tie the Tactics setting to the effectiveness of your sneak, the logic behind it being that if you are fighting cautiously, you also move more cautiously.

Unfortunately, the tactics in ADMO reduces ToHit and Damage, so it doesn't translate very well into backstabbing etc.

Solutions:
Add a whole different slider for move speed -> Cautious>Normal>Run which affecs move speed, fatigue (food consumption) and noise you make. The good thing is, it adds some complexity to the move system, the bad is it is yet another slider to make the UI more complex.

Or, a simple on/off toggle for cautious mode for the PC.

I also think the sneak gameplay should be made a bit more rewarding for thieves: things should be easier to steal while in cautious mode, traps easier to spot, encounters easier to avoit etc.
I think it would be great to add a Backstab effect for ranged combat as well (but it should work only at point blank/short range).

To balance this out: Make encumberance and armor weight more of a penalty for sneak.

[Grey]

I like the idea of a movement speed slider. It adds an extra tactic in combat. Slower speed would improve stealth and accuracy at the cost of damage output and defense. Running would make you harder to hit, cause more damage when charging an enemy (but with less to hit and criticals since you have less aim) and use much more food. Would be something like this:

Tiptoeing - Much higher stealth, higher to hit, higher critical chance, lower damage, much lower DV, much lower movement speed, slightly smaller chance to set off traps
Creeping - Higher stealth, slightly higher to hit/critical, lower damage, lower DV, lower movement speed
Walking - normal
Jogging - lower stealth, lower to hit/critical, slightly higher DV, higher movement speed, slightly higher hunger rate
Running - much lower stealth, much lower to hit/critical, higher DV, much higher movement, much higher hunger rate

This would affect enemies as well. If you decide to run from a mob you'll be harder to hit, and they'll have to run to keep up with you - making it harder for them to aim at you. But if someone does hit you it'll hurt a lot, since they're getting more momentum behind their attacks. The stealth could maybe reduce the negatives you get on Stealth from jogging and running, allowing well-trained thieves to dash through buildings unseen.

Perhaps some people wouldn't enjoy this level of complexity, but it's something I'd personally love. Could influence a lot of different areas of the game. Easy to add keybindings too - F7 to F12 are free, and the perfect counterpart to the tactics keys.

[spectre]

I thought about just the very same thing you just said, Grey.

One slight problem about this suggestion - it overlaps a lot with the Tactics setting, and may result in odd setting combinations (for example, you "Cowardly Run" to negate the coward toHit/Damage penalty, or Cowardly Run at 1/3 speed for really freakin awesome movement speed.
Added complexity to turn base combat is a good thing, but this may be pushing it a bit.

I am not saying it cannot be done right, but that's what led me to suggest an on/off key for sneak in the end.

As to the effects of running on hunger, or food consumption - I would deal with it by adding a "Winded" and "Tired" condition to the PC.
Ideally, a fatigue characteristic could be a solution, but Winded/Tired blends well with the existing ADOM system.

Winded/Tired would limit the use of Running, walking while overburdened, using special abilities such as Power Blow or whatnot.