Does JADE need more complex combat?

[reich]

yeah, but the spear is kind of long and unwieldy and not to good to block or parry incoming attacks, especially when the enemy has closed in already.

[Elone]

Actually it's easy to defend with a light and wieldy polearm in melee. In ADOM1, the same bonus applies to DV against missiles. Not okay. But in melee? I tried defending (in a sparring) with a single long staff and it worked wonders. It takes a bit of practice, but then again it also takes practice in ADOM1, doesnt it?

And definitely add Grey's point. Not my intention to troll, but that guy keeps giving valid points outta blue, ones that never crossed my mind earlier. Yes, range matters in offense.

[Grey]

ADOM's attack interface (inherently realistic I'll admit) implies one attack after another. So each round is a fresh forward charge. Someone with a spear has an obvious advantage here in restricting their enemy's offense. In roguelikes there's no real sense of an interactive melee, in which a spear-user will have a good initial advantage that'll be lost after the enemy gets up close.

[F50]

In ADOM1, the same bonus applies to DV against missiles.

Yeah, that could be changed.

I tried defending (in a sparring) with a single long staff and it worked wonders. It takes a bit of practice, but then again it also takes practice in ADOM1, doesnt it?

Staff is an excellent weapon, as is spear. It irks me when people talk about spears as inferior to swords (swords have their advantages, but are not strictly superior to spears), something I was glad to see fixed in ADOM. However, it is improper to all JADE ADOM2 (implied by calling ADOM "ADOM1") as noted by the So Sayeth the Creator thread.

I too like the ADOM attack interface. The main thing that I think could be improved is that the penalty to being attacked on multiple fronts is very low.

EDIT:

Perhaps a front system could be implemented like this:

Define the "front degree" of a situation as the amount of rotation required to defend against all attacking monsters.

The front degree of the following is 5

.d.
.@.
.d.

whereas the front degree of this is 3

.d.
.@d
...

and this degree is 7

.d.
d@d
.d.

As long as the front degree is 2 or less there is no penalty. The total degree of a situation is reduced by one if you have a shield and the amount of degree necessary to incur a penalty is increased by one if you wield a spear.

If the degree is more than the allowed amount there is a penalty. The degree is like a multiplier. For each monster -1 DV multiplied by the degree. Thus a degree 5 situation with 2 monsters is -2*5=-10 DV. So if you are surrounded, then it is 8*8=-64 DV

This is not an unduly large punishment. If you are surrounded you should expect to be hit lots and conversely, if you have all of your enemies coming from one direction, you should expect not to suffer large DV penalties (3 enemies in optimum position is -9DV, 4 is -16).

[reich]

I tried defending (in a sparring) with a single long staff and it worked wonders. It takes a bit of practice, but then again it also takes practice in ADOM1, doesnt it?

Staff is an excellent weapon, as is spear. It irks me when people talk about spears as inferior to swords, something I was glad to see fixed in ADOM

Well, a staff is something different than a spear, true that it is a good defensive weapon, but I think that's because how you hold it - in both hands, and you can get it sideways to block an attack. And AdoM gives you this the DV bonus for a single-handed spear.

I see a spear as more of a rank-and-file weapon. Paired with a shield, it's great for a group of soldiers who make a tight and spiky defensive formation, like the greek hoplites.

But not really all that great for individual heroics.

[Grey]

As long as the front degree is 2 or less there is no penalty. The total degree of a situation is reduced by one if you have a shield and the amount of degree necessary to incur a penalty is increased by one if you wield a spear.

If the degree is more than the allowed amount there is a penalty. The degree is like a multiplier. For each monster -1 DV multiplied by the degree. Thus a degree 5 situation with 2 monsters is -2*5=-10 DV. So if you are surrounded, then it is 8*8=-64 DV

I very much like this idea. Makes a lot of sense, and adds real gameplay dynamic. Perhaps with higher speed or skill the DV penalty would be reduced (I'm thinking more for gameplay reasons than realism reasons to be honest). Wizards and such would suffer from this more than fighting classes (as they alrady do in ADOM).

I also feel that when surrounded monsters should have a higher chance of criticals, so they can get around high PV. One thing that's really lacking in ADOM is the idea that a lion can be taken down by a pack of wolves - something which is very true in nature. In ADOM a character with strong defenses will always beat a horde surrounding him/her. With extra criticals when surrounded a tougher character will find monsters around him managing to break through his protection more often and gradually tearing him down. Of course we don't want it too easy to get killed (there's plenty of ways already) but it would discourage reckless play with even more powerful PCs and make the likes of temples more dangerous. In JADE this could be tied in with monster AIs trying to outflank the PC and get him on each side.

[F50]

But not really all that great for individual heroics.

Part of the problem is what is defined as "spear". Greek hoplites did not wield spears, they wielded *pikes* (at least all but the front row did), which are only useful in formations (though not just against cavalry). A one-person spear is either:

1. moderately heavy. In two hands, this is very much like a staff with a pointy bit on the end. With a shield you'll have slightly less maneuverability, and will probably have a disadvantage against swordsmen but you can be very effective against anything with less than superhuman strength (giants, molochs etc.) if you have something to use instead of a formation (like dungeon walls).

2. moderately light. If this is wielded with two hands, the wielder must outmaneuver his opponent. If this is wielded with a (esp. light) shield, it can be especially dangerous as the shield allows the user to have some time to get away or reposition the spear as to be dangerous at close quarters (arm way back etc.) and is very hard for an unshielded foe to approach.

I would prefer a light spear with shield, otherwise you have to much more skilled to stay alive.

Concerning crits:

At the close range fighting offered by being surrounded, the PC's sword/dagger/desperation makes scoring crits more likely for the PC as well as for the other monsters (Obviously more for the monsters than the PC). I suggest that the increasing criticals factor for the player be increased by 1/3 of the amount of the monsters. In worst case 8*8 scenario given no reductions, at least 75% of monster hits should be crits (25% for the player).

I also noticed my function gives smaller penalties than I would like.

Consider a shielded PC with 7 monsters around him. This guarantees a degree of 7 thus the equation is 6*7=-42DV. This is for being almost completely surrounded. With six (degree 7) its 6*6= -36DV and with five (degree 7) its 6*5=-30DV. This is still a significant penalty, and probably sufficient for a level 32-40 (ADOM-scale) fighter, but not for a level 6 weakling.

Furthermore, what happens if you're double wielding?

[reich]

This concept of surrounding by monsters is very good, because it is done without having to introduce the front- and backside of PC!!

[Grey]

Furthermore, what happens if you're double wielding?

I'd say similar to the ADOM system but with greater DV bonuses, especially with lighter weapons. Would possibly reduce enemy criticals since they won't take so many chances with two blades sticking in their faces.

[Tannis]

Wow, great discussion guys. I really like F50's thoughts on the impact of being surrounded on a weapon's DV value.

For the record, I personally i think the main advantage of a spear should be its reach. Instead of representing this with a high dv value, I think a skilled spearsman should be able to attack targets not just adjacent to them but also one square a way. If anyone's ever played Crawl, kind of like the bonus offered by a spear of reaching. When the monster is one square away you can hit him and he can't touch you. Once the gap is closed, the advantage of the spear is gone.