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Thread: Does JADE need more complex combat?

  1. #21
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    but that's not how a spear works. If a person manages to stay up really close to you then you have a severe disadvantage. Spear combat is about one person closing the range and the other creating distance.

    goblin: jumps past spear, attempts a strike
    PC: blocks with shield, steps back while striking at goblin
    repeat.

    Besides, if it spears hit from a distance, then you start stepping back one square every time a monster gets near you, and that could be overpowered/cheesy. What happens when a monster wields a spear, you didn't think they could attack you from that range? Sorry, remember to always [l]ook at the monster you fight. I think you are confusing spear and pike, as the pike actually does act like this, except you aren't going to be moving very fast with a pike, so it would make sense to graphically represent this on the dungeon square.

    The DV of the spear comes from its reach, the spearholder wanting to maintain the distance, and the swordsman, wanting to close in, but having trouble because a spearhead is constantly in his way. Once the gap is closed, its not a game-over situation.

    Would possibly reduce enemy criticals since they won't take so many chances with two blades sticking in their faces.
    I suppose that the result is divided by two before the critical bit is added on then, makes sense, especially as two-handed fighters have less DV to begin with.

    A troll with two clubs sounds like the perfect group fighter now.

  2. #22
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    I don't like the idea of the spear having an actual greater range. It makes zero sense against the likes of dragons.

    Another thing that I think needs to be considered is being hit by lots of arrows from different directions. In ADOM it doesn't matter if you're being peppered by 1 arrow a round or 20 - you have the same chance to Dodge each. More realistic might be that every shot has an increasing chance to hit you, as they contrain you in. A rain of arrows from all sides should be more deadly than 20 shots in a row.

  3. #23
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    Quite, but by how much? Would -1 DV do or would -5DV be more appropriate? What if you are being shot from one side and attacked from another? Would the DV penalty from the shot carry to the attack? (I think it should)

  4. #24
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    I say this.

    You get a -1DV per each extra arrow that was shot at you before you can act again. If you take your turn, and 4 archers shoot 4 arrows at you before your next turn is charged, then first arrow will be normal, second will be -1DV, third will be -2DV, fourth will be -3DV. Once you get another turn, this penalty is completely reset.

    I also say that we remain at SMALL numbers. Remember that talents in ADOM used to give +2 to +4 to hit or damage, and they were even rated as very good ones! Dodge gives 10DV when maxed, whole skill devoted to gaining only 10DV. The arrow-rain penalty should be there to show enemies' advantage over you, NOT to allow kobolds to instakill you if they all shoot at once (with your -5DV penalty per missile). -2DV at max, and for these numbers I'm using the existing ADOM engine as my guideline, whereas JADE will probably be milder.

    Also, since Hero has 360 degree vision, it wont matter where enemy shoots from. Hero cannot be attacked from behind. It will also be a hassle to store directions that arrows came from, into variables. An arrow rain is an arrow rain, wherever it comes from. I say that this penalty is to be universal for any direction that you are shot from.

    Have fun finding flaws in this.
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  5. #25

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    Speaking of arrows, I have to wonder if there should be a penalty of some sort when firing a bow at a target immediately adjacent to you. It seems that aiming and firing and all that would be significantly more difficult of someone is in your face bashing away. This could simply be represented by a penalty to hit with a ranged weapon when being attacked by an adjacent foe.

    I guess you guys are right about increased range with spears/pikes. With sufficient speed, a character could conceivably never get hit, which is too easily exploited.

    Another aspect of combat I'd like to see expanded in JADE are shields. In medieval combat, bucklers and smaller shields had an offensive role as well. Instead of using them to block blows, they were sometimes used to smash the enemies face in. I'd like to see the option to use a shield as a bashing attack, with the DV bonus of the shield negated for the turn(s) in which it is used offensively.

  6. #26
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    Yeah, I agree, -1DV per shot, building up until the turn counter is reset. With good enough PV it won't make much difference (though every shot still has a chance of critical), but will encourage players to avoid being shot from several angles (which is of course true to a certain extent in ADOM already).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by F50 View Post
    Part of the problem is what is defined as "spear". Greek hoplites did not wield spears, they wielded *pikes* (at least all but the front row did), which are only useful in formations (though not just against cavalry). A one-person spear is either:

    1. moderately heavy. In two hands, this is very much like a staff with a pointy bit on the end. With a shield you'll have slightly less maneuverability, and will probably have a disadvantage against swordsmen but you can be very effective against anything with less than superhuman strength (giants, molochs etc.) if you have something to use instead of a formation (like dungeon walls).

    2. moderately light. If this is wielded with two hands, the wielder must outmaneuver his opponent. If this is wielded with a (esp. light) shield, it can be especially dangerous as the shield allows the user to have some time to get away or reposition the spear as to be dangerous at close quarters (arm way back etc.) and is very hard for an unshielded foe to approach.
    you speak of one type of spear, probably those used in 4000 B.C. a stick with a big rock on it before there were any type of real advancements in weapon technology. Ever seen a chinese spear? Thoes things are VERY light and in skilled hands can strike EXTREMELY fast faster than any punch kick or slice of a sword anyone could put out.

  8. #28
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    Not gonna google now, but if I recall well, you're talking about yari? It's a combination of a spear and a trident. I will try some ASCII here.


    .......................###>
    ....................###
    ..................##
    #################################>
    .................###
    .................#..###
    .................#.....###>
    ................#


    Ignore the dots, without them imagy gets messed up. No, it's not out of proportion. Well, the side pronges are a bit sizey. At times, the middle pronge would be the same length as its wooden handle. The side pronges were there for various uses: it's harder to sompletely miss your foe since one of those three pronges is likely to hit, they're also there to grab a weapon, and they can be used for cutting if their edges were somehow sharpened. The weapon can be heavy, but it's usually made light; handle is made of bamboo and spikes are made flat, and can even bend. Notice the band - it's not just a decoration. Bands are usually large, and serve to confuse the enemy during the swing, and to stop the pouring tasty blood from reaching the handle, which would make it slippery, and harder to wield and use.

    I hope that this is what Sradac was talking about.

    Anyway, in a game like ADOM/JADE, it will be a hassle to implement the (and properly use ingame) spear/pike range.

    I found the idea of bashing with a shield (but losing DV provided by it) for that turn, to be a much more intriguing one. However, how can we make a shield attack be different from any other? Everything else aside... I say that shield bash should be derived from either shield weight, or shield DV (plus the DV bonuses granted by your shield skill). Hopefully no one will jump at my throat for using DV to attack, but then again, your DV bonus is the actual shield skill, which means more damage with your shield. In other words, you lose DV defense for that turn, but that actual DV is only converted into attack for that turn. The damage doesnt have to be the direct DV that you sacrificed, but it can be any tweaked and balanced damage formula.

    Or am I seeing something wrong?
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elone View Post
    I also say that we remain at SMALL numbers. Remember that talents in ADOM used to give +2 to +4 to hit or damage, and they were even rated as very good ones!
    +2 to hit isn't great from my point of view, I never get those talents, weapon skill grants it in much larger quantities. +2 to damage is nice though, but we're not talking about PV.
    The arrow-rain penalty should be there to show enemies' advantage over you, NOT to allow kobolds to instakill you if they all shoot at once (with your -5DV penalty per missile).
    I wasn't actually suggesting -5DV (ouch!), just asking for ideas on numbers, although it does imply that.

    As for kobolds installing you, "instakill" is the wrong word to use as it implies there being nothing else to check against, like hitpoints. -5DV is obviously overdoing it as it would take no more than 8 (-40 DV) arrows to remove all of a mid-level PC's DV for a round. -4 DV raises the amount of arrows required to about 10, still not enough. -3 starts to get reasonable (not for kobolds though) at ~14. Thinking about it, arrows are quite hard to dodge.
    It will also be a hassle to store directions that arrows came from, into variables.
    Should've made it more clear, but I meant for "Would the DV penalty from the shot carry to the attack? (I think it should)" to follow from "What if you are being shot from one side and attacked from another?", not that it would make a difference based upon direction in and of itself. That said it should impact your DV significantly so that you run out of DV at about 20 arrows (imagine the pincushion you'd become). Thus, -2DV sounds appropriate, perhaps -3DV for a skilled archer (and by the time you encounter them you'd have some more DV to go through).


    Ever seen a chinese spear?
    yes, on youtube. That said, I wasn't thinking of it when I wrote that.

    you speak of one type of spear, probably those used in 4000 B.C. a stick with a big rock on it before there were any type of real advancements in weapon technology.
    It is obvious in my post that I was talking of two types of spears, one being only slightly larger than the chinese spear. Also, not all that much changed from Alexandrian times to early Medieval times in terms of *western* technology, and "4000 BC" sounds like hyperbole. The East was more advanced than the West until near the industrial revolution.



    As for shield-bashing, DV sounds like the wrong attribute to base it on. Consider Brass Bracers, or the unwieldy Crystal Tower Shield. It would likely have to be its own stat (probably only revealed by greater identify). How much damage would you inflict with a shield anyways. You would be more likely to momentarily stun your opponent or push him/her of balance. Perhaps you are sacrificing DV in return for a good chance of the target receiving a large -tohit bonus?
    Last edited by F50; 04-21-2008 at 03:50 AM.

  10. #30
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    Indeed those talents were weak, once you become uber at the end of the game; however we dont want uber-critical stuff for our characters at all. For instance, we dont want a neccssity of armies, nor this very DV penalty system, to become main concerns of our game.

    Yes, now I see your point there. If you were first attacked by an arrow and lost some DV, and then someone attacks you in melee, do you lose the DV? I'd say yes. ACTUALLY, multiple melee attacks per round are very likely to also take some of your DV away in the exact same manner, dont you think? But for these (at least for melee), I say that the base DV penalty gets modified by things like your level, their level, and such (but not by too many factors).

    So all this 'surrounded thingy' system can work like this, you lose some DV per each attack, and the penalty is reset once you get a new turn; avoiding the complicated calculations of angles and flanks.

    Also, very important, I suggest shields to use their DV INSTEAD of adding the damage stat to a shield!! If we add the damage, then shields will become a weapon like any other. Shield is a special weapon though. And what makes it so special? The fact that its damage IS calculated differently than from other weapons. I will repeat it again, damage would be derived from its DV (PLUS your shield skill bonus) because frankly, that's your shield Weaponskill.
    Last edited by Elone; 04-21-2008 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Added my thought on shield bashing.
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