Does JADE need more complex combat?

[Tannis]

Compared to ADOM that is.

ADOM is a fairly complex game in almost every facet, but I think it could go slightly deeper. In ADOM, you choose a weapon to work with, and you choose a tactical setting. I personally use normal tactics against most things, berserk against easy things or when I'm desperate, and defensive against monsters that I really don't want to hit me. But besides choosing weapon type and tactics, there's not much more to combat in ADOM.

But here's the deal. You attack monsters thousands of times in an average game. So if combat was more complex, requiring multiple steps just to hit one monster it would get very very tedious to play out a large battle. I think I have a nice way to make combat more complex without bogging down the game.

The first thing to add is combat skills. You could learn these skills as you level up, train at guilds, or train with special NPCS. When I say combat skills, think of the class skills for the Fighter from ADOM, like the stun move or the circular blow. You could activate them by hitting control x, and different strokes or moves would add complexity to combat. Some blows would be like the barbarian's skill, hitting harder but slower, some could be like the fighter or monk's skill, targeting multiple opponents, and some could be the inverse of the barbarian skill, striking faster but doing less damage. With this system diversity and depth is added to your combat choices, but it's not something you have to necessarily do everytime you attack.

Another way to add depth to combat is an option to target specific body parts. In ADOM, you attack a monster by walking into it, and it should be like this in JADE. Another option I feel like should be a targeted attack. For example, when standing next to a monster you could hit a command, let's say ctr T, and it would then prompt you which body part: 1 for head, 2 for chest, 3 for lower body. The effectiveness of this could be determined by your weapon and the time of monster you face. An axe against humanoids could do best when aimed at the neck. A dagger against an armored foe could do best when aimed for the lower body, where you try to slip the dagger into a spot not covered by the plate.

Does anyone like these ideas, especially the 2nd one, or is it needless complication?

[Sradac]

Omega had the targeted combat system, you would choose if you wanted to strike high, middle, or low on the enemy and you aslo chose where you wanted to block high middle or low. It worked out pretty good if you got used to it.

[Chaine]

I think there could be some deeper system, but you shouldn't have to use it.
I'd love to have "'S'kill moves" (you don't do anything on useful on S, right?) as you said; spinning, stunning, attempting to hit a critical location, fast cutting combos to make oppotents bleed to death. I'd also like some more advanced tactics, just not defensive-agressive but fighting quick/weak or slow/strong - or some different stances or something.
It shouldn't be too complicated though as switching styles for each different monster type you encounter would be a big pain - if you for example encounter a quick pixie, then a slow ogre, then an elf, then another pixie, then something really slow again.

[Tannis]

I think there could be some deeper system, but you shouldn't have to use it.
I'd love to have "'S'kill moves" (you don't do anything on useful on S, right?) as you said; spinning, stunning, attempting to hit a critical location, fast cutting combos to make oppotents bleed to death. I'd also like some more advanced tactics, just not defensive-agressive but fighting quick/weak or slow/strong - or some different stances or something.
It shouldn't be too complicated though as switching styles for each different monster type you encounter would be a big pain - if you for example encounter a quick pixie, then a slow ogre, then an elf, then another pixie, then something really slow again.

I think we're all in agreement that it should be logical and fluid, and shouldn't bog the game down. You also gave me a good idea. Targeting body parts and combat skills could be combined into one. You hit ctrl x and could see options like stun or whirlwind blow, but could also see target head, target chest. An elegant solution.

[Chaine]

I think we're all in agreement that it should be logical and fluid, and shouldn't bog the game down. You also gave me a good idea. Targeting body parts and combat skills could be combined into one. You hit ctrl x and could see options like stun or whirlwind blow, but could also see target head, target chest. An elegant solution.

I was just thinking of an "attack critical" (critical, vital or weak location) attack, which when used automatically targets the monsters weak spot if it is known. For example an "attack critical" move versus a human would target the throat or heath, one versus a cyclops would target the eye, one versus a demon would target the head and so on.
You simply choose "attack critical" from a skill list or something and "You aim for the goblin slavemasters throat and perfectly slit it with a smooth move. The goblin slavemaster collapses on the ground", or "You reach as high as you can and stab the cyclops in the eye, it staggers [and takes critical damage]".
Either that or you could choose to target a certain body part yourself, like the eyes, face, chest, tail and such.
I still love the idea of being able to stun enemies with attacks, that would be really fun.

[Grey]

TB stated in another post that he was hoping to have special effects from higher weapon skills like stunning, causing bleeding etc, and I assume things appropriate to the different types of weapon. Personaly I'd like to see more distinguishment between how the different weapons operate. Like daggers should be fast but low on damage. Axes should be slow and easily dodged, but do high damage with a chance to pierce armour. Would make choosing between weapons more complex than simply which causes the most damage.

Would also be nice to see some relationship between magic and melee. Casting a temporary fire hands intrinsic that causes fire damage with all your attacks for instance. Or imbuing your weapon with holy magic that paralyses undead/demons. Or other stuff like simple temporary speed or strength boosts. These could spice up combat a little bit.

[Elone]

Grey keeps giving valid points. Not only that weapons' worth was measured by its raw damage (or optionally the penetration suffix), but a warrior cant find enough spells to augment self or own weaponry. An Archer could benefit from Farsight greatly, but I dont see other huge examples now. Every weapon should have a special trait which makes them worth using, and then tweak those traits to equal each other as much as possible. I like the idea: spears pierce thru PV, hammers stun, daggers make bleeding damage.

They could all have a percentage of dealing those effects, in addition to skills or critical attacks that an adventurer would land.

Frozen dagger, flaming dagger, acid-dripping dagger. Or sword, or guisarme. Enchantment can add elemental damage to a melee weapon. That's a small detail, but it will be much more noticeable once someone multiclasses and decides that it's rather useful.

Interesting.

[F50]

I would prefer the standard ADOM DV bonus to spears rather than PV piercing.

[reich]

the reason why pole arms give such a big DV bonus while wielded one-handed was always a mystery to me. That should change in AdoM 2 IMO.

[Grey]

The longer range means you can keep more space around yourself. The enemy can't attack you very easily with a 6 foot pole sticking in his face. Perhaps though the bonus should be severely reduced when surrounded.