Freindly party AI?

[F50]

Suppose that you are not so much of a hero in JADE as you are in ADOM. Suppose you are a normal adventurer.

If you are beset by jackals in the wilderness and are surrounded you will die (see: Does JADE need more complex combat? page 2).

Naturally, you are going to want some help.


So how would the player lead a band of adventurers through JADE? The ADOM interface isn't really enough. If leading a party becomes worthwhile, then there are tons of quests that open up in regard to leading expeditions, escorting, and conventional warfare.



Some brainstorming:

Suggestion 1. The easiest way to do this is to have the player give all the orders and have the AI be able to respond to them. CTRL+O gives you a set of options as to what you want your entire party to do. O

a. follow me (easy enough)

b. engage target (easy enough)

c. engage all hostiles. (easy enough)

d. Defend position. Make a tight circle around position (targeted like arrows). Useful to make a stand in a disadvantageous position and prevents any one member of the group from being surrounded.

e. Attack position. Wait within a few squares of target position

f. Make line. Give direction (n, e, w, s, ne, nw, se, sw) to make line face.

g. engage group. Pick a member of a group to attack and then attack that member of the group. One problem: what defines a group?



Which ones are useless, which ones are useful, any others that would be nice? Can the interface be made simpler?

Other solutions than letting the player/AI commander do most of the thinking?

What orders should an AI commander give?

[theotherhiveking]

The AI commander should give the ones you tagged as 'easy enough'

[reich]

To have some sort of squad mechanics, it's IMO necessary to introduce the concept of FORMATION - a group of beings always staying in the same relative position to each other.

The PC could order his subordinates to form up into a square, line or column and then have them to move around in formation. That could be enough for some basic tactics.

If the PC could control 2 or 3 such formation, even more sophisticated tactics could be used, like surrounding the enemy.

[Grey]

Well, we don't want this being too much like CnC... Defending an area sounds nice, since it'll force the group (or individual) to stay around a particular location and fight things that come within a certain range (but without following if they flee). If you choose the defending location to be yourself then they'd form a shield around you. Should also be a general "attack all hostile" command. There would need to be an option to give orders to an individual or to all nearby allies. Otherwise I don't think there should be anything more complex than the current ADOM commands. Any advanced tactics should be part of general monster AI, and not controlled by the player.

Not something I would bother using much though. The fact is that AI is never wholly dependable, so I could never rely on pets or allies to be useful.

[Elone]

My adamant answer is no.

JADE will be focused on one hero, otherwise it will not be a roguelike. AI thingy sounds good, but it does not automatically justify the addition of armies (of any size) into player control. At best, you will get a pet or two to help you thruout the game like in the old ADOM. If you are attacked by a pack of jackals, your hero will rather be able to defeat them, than hire a meatshield army to protect him.

You seem to be hellbent on weakening our heros at any cost. Cripple their DV when surrounded, make them so weak that thry cant defeat a jackal pack anymore, make them sweat in deserts and make them freeze in snow. Such masochists you are. Snap out of it!

To say that you want a realism is a poor excuse for weakening heroes into nothingness.

[Nezur]

JADE will be focused on one hero, otherwise it will not be a roguelike.

Thomas has already planned to take in many not-very-roguelike elements. In my opinion it's not important to stay within the lines of a traditional roguelike.

The command interface could as well be improved. I do, however, agree that the game should center on the player character.

[F50]

You seem to be hellbent on weakening our heroes at any cost. Cripple their DV when surrounded, make them so weak that they cant defeat a jackal pack anymore, make them sweat in deserts and make them freeze in snow. Such masochists you are. Snap out of it!

I didn't contribute significantly to the weather thread.

Heroes should not be weak, but they should not be gods. A adventurer just starting out should not be so buff as to take on a large group of formidable wilderness creatures by himself in the open. After some battle experience, sure, but not such a group of equal-level monsters by himself.

I am not saying that the PC should hire an army, that should be ridiculously expensive, but the player should always have a few companions following him/her around in case of a tension room, vault, or wilderness encounter to prevent encircling problems and allow sacrificial tactical retreat (ie. cowardly running away leaving your companions to die) in order to survive.

Not something I would bother using much though. The fact is that AI is never wholly dependable, so I could never rely on pets or allies to be useful.

That, I think, is the problem. Allies don't really listen to you in ADOM and can't hold their own in a fight. By the time you can get a formidable ally, its already obsolete (Except perhaps in the SMC at level ~25, but even then it hampers more than it helps).

I am trying to suggest useful allies. That said, thinking of the player commanding an all out war was a little overambitious. Here a somewhat simpler revision.


Suggestion 1 (revised). CTRL+O gives you a set of options as to what you want your entire party to do. ALT+O gives you the same set of options for a single NPC. If you are a commander by contract (with trained hired soldiers or professional adventures and such), allies will always listen to you.

a. Form up.
(i. line. Give Depth, the line will form in the direction you last moved.
(ii. circle. Give size. Forms a circle useful for defending open positions.
(iii. Defend. Positions units so as to give the most attacking sides should a hostile come to position. Useful for holding choke points such as doorways. An AI unit should not take up position next to a doorway (so that a single attacker can't take on a large group.

b. engage target.

c. engage all hostiles.

d. Wait here

This is a much smaller and more manageable for a player or AI commander to use.


If area is open (not dungeon/town) use circle formation, otherwise use line.

If the enemy is in a hallway, and your men are not significantly stronger than the enemy, defend at the doorway.

Engage all hostiles when close to enemies and not significantly outnumbered. If significantly outnumbered use circle formation.


This should make groups of AI much more dangerous to the PC.

[Grey]

I am not saying that the PC should hire an army, that should be ridiculously expensive, but the player should always have a few companions following him/her around in case of a tension room, vault, or wilderness encounter to prevent encircling problems and allow sacrificial tactical retreat (ie. cowardly running away leaving your companions to die) in order to survive.

Always? A strong word, and I disagree on it. The game should mostly be about single character combat. Pets and allies should be an available option like in ADOM, but not necessary in any way. They're just one way of handling a situation. I really can't stand a game that makes me reliant on AI - there are very few where NPCs have been controlled well by the AI. Making allies necessary would ruin JADE entirely I think.

If you are a commander by contract (with trained hired soldiers or professional adventures and such), allies will always listen to you.

Always? Such strong words again :P There should be morale factors. Ordering allies to defend you to the death against greater molochs won't work too well, especially if they don't like you. Of course if you're more poerful than the enemy they might rather attack it out of fear of your rebuttal. Charisma and Intimidation would all come into this, as well as alignment and so forth.

I don't like the formation ideas personally. They're too static and would have very limited application in the game, not to mention being inherently difficult to code. I don't think enough people would make use of the features to any great effect.

[F50]

If the AI aren't that smart, it doesn't make sense for them to not always listen to you. So yes, always.

However, you are somewhat right that the player may not *always* have people following you around. I would recommended *usually* in the early game though (but only 1 or 2).

The formations may not sound useful, but a mindless mass is always (ok, now I'm just saying that to annoy you) worse than a not-so-good formation. Furthermore, it wouldn't be hard to code, simply tell the character to go to the location described by a formula. The formula should remain simple for circle (basically a rounded square formation) line (obviously) and even defend (maximize the area covered). It could also be hard coded without too many ill effects I think.

Mostly you wouldn't *need* companions except in situations where you've got a lot to chew (jackal pack, tension room etc.). Ideally they would be well equipped and would level automatically (or at least share XP with) with the PC so they don't become obsolete very quickly like in ADOM.

AI in most games are not stupid and there are some (Mount&blade [its a 3d game], just an example, I would not like JADE to take this route) which have AI such that though the PC is as good as 5-10 men, it is really the NPCs that do most of the work and the player just has fun and orders them around.

Most of my absolutes (always statements) really mean "mostly always" and are just there to make a point. However, some people (like myself) like to pick those statements apart and then I have to go back and clarify. :P

[Elone]

Like Grey, I also strongly disagree. The last I want in JADE is my dependency on companions. And even if I supported this idea, formations could somewhat arrange your companions around you without you having to do it manually; but how many creative and different formations can you arrange on such a tight square grid in a dungeon room or in a corridor? To cover your flanks? Which flanks? To create a circle around you? One or two, or even three companions cannot create a circle around you. So you indeed do seem to be talking about armies here.

I'll say it again:

No.