The 'treasure hunter' talent sucks.

[gut]

Silfir:
> We know how to survive until we get the powerful items
> we need to rely on.

I probably should have presented the list of guaranteed
items in the original post, it was just getting long.
Here is a list, though I probably leave some out.

Frost bolt spellbook and wand, fireball wands, fireproof
blanket, two waterproof blankets, (a whole set of) mithril
armor pieces, Big Punch (heavy, but a one handed weapon
of mass destruction), the Ankh, the Ancient Mummy Wrapping,
the Elemental Guantlets, Ring of the High Kings, wand of
teleportation, infinite potions of booze (beggar juice),
many potions of extra healing, weapons and armor from
Darkforge, Ring of the Master Cat (but only if you are
careful).

My point being, that with such items being guaranteed,
the need to find more becomes a matter of optimization,
rather than need. I think a better chance to survive the
early game, is more rewarding than an improved chance at
future (unneeded) optimizations.

> Treasure Hunter is all about preventing hassle.

Yep. The way I have it figured, that's what it provides;
less hassle. If you have no intention of using any
scummy methods, and feel no worries about surviving the
early-game, then 'treasure hunter' is a valid convenience
feature.

> are all alternatives to get the loot you need, but they
> are all boring

Agreed on all points, but my point was that you don't
need any of those methods either. If one needs extra loot
to win the game (likely you don't), then get the extra
loot in the best way possible. If one doesn't need extra
loot to win (almost everyone, as tactics are much more
important than items) then 'treasure hunter' sucks.

> Besides, if I'm good enough to play with restrictions,
> I don't need no stinking early game survival talents.

Well, I sure do! Stupid stone block traps... *grumble*

Many players roll several PC's to get some feature they
like, such as nice stats, complimentary star sign, or a
particularly valuable starting item. It's annoying to
get smashed right away, and have to re-start the process.
Also, it's tough to put a lot of work into a PC, just to
see them die from not being able to outrun a revenant or
something. Extra speed or HP's can save frustration for
the best of us.

> A good suit of armor obtained early is much more
> helpful than the PV talents

Are you implying that good suits of armor can only be
found, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?
Perhaps you imply that good suits of armor are to be
guaranteed, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?

Nope on both counts. One who hunts treasure may indeed
find themselves lacking in armor, and one who doesn't
may indeed be rolling in it. In my 'no hunt treasure'
games, I find there to be no shortage of decent armor
pieces. I don't think it is a good bargain, to give up
immediate (life-saving) benefits, in exchange for possible
future ones.

Darren:
> As seen from my research it gives around an extra 15%
> chance that a monster will drop an item when killed
> (code-diving supposedly says 12.5%). By that I mean
> if the normal chance is 10% the resultant chance will
> be 25%. In the early game at least this seems to double
> item drops.

I intentionally did not post figures, because they can
mislead (un-intentionally).

Following the link I find:

> For each I took a sample set of 400 kills. Each character
> ended up at level 9.

> Treasure Hunter: 98 items, 58 corpses, 20 piles of gold
> Non-TH: 57 items, 59 corpses, 6 piles of gold

This test does not prove to me how good 'treasure hunter'
is, it proves how horrible it is. WHAT? 98 items vs. 57!
Surly I can see how good that is, right? Wrong. Look at
the effort that went into getting those 41 extra items.
If given a choice, between doing THAT, or doing without,
wouldn't you do without? I certainly would.

Granted, you are going to kill 400 monsters sooner or later,
so you can get those 41 items (eventually) without the extra
effort. I wonder though, how much extra effort it would take
to generate those same 41 items via ID stair hopping? I say
10 minutes tops. That would mean 10 minutes in the ID, is the
equivelant of the 'treasure hunter' talent, up to the 400
kill mark. (By then, I'm usually well past Dwarftown, even
if not playing for turns.) The main use of 'treasure hunter',
is as a convenience feature, for those who dislike scumming.

> More importantly it means double the armour in the early game

No it doesn't, and shame on you : )

> double scrolls (you'll find which is identify much quicker)

No, it doesn't.

> and double water (always handy).

No, it doesn't. It only means double, if you completely ignore
all items not dropped by monsters.

> extra money early game

No shortage of that yellow stuff in ADOM.

> Through the game it means a much better chance for all of
> Gaab'Baay's ingredients early on if going for an ultra,

Much better chance? I don't know about that (as to my
knowledge, it only helps with item drops), but I will
agree about the boar skull.

> TH at least doubles the effects of gremlin bombing

I don't think it helps with pickpocketing, but I'm
not in a possition to debate pickpocketing : )

> help me get more blankets and eq for the Tower

There is a guaranteed blanket from Thrundarr, which
decreases the need for more. Just remember to doom
yourself before going in ; )

[Silfir]

"Frost bolt spellbook and wand, fireball wands, fireproof
blanket, two waterproof blankets, (a whole set of) mithril
armor pieces, Big Punch (heavy, but a one handed weapon
of mass destruction), the Ankh, the Ancient Mummy Wrapping,
the Elemental Guantlets, Ring of the High Kings, wand of
teleportation, infinite potions of booze (beggar juice),
many potions of extra healing, weapons and armor from
Darkforge, Ring of the Master Cat (but only if you are
careful)."

The majority of these so-called "guaranteed items" are found in the early midgame, not the early game. Yes, Darkforge raiding requires only a blink dog corpse or a mindcrafter to give you awesome weapons and armor, and a skilled player can execute the Darkforge raid without getting brutally slaughtered by the steel golems.

Yes, you can win the game with the items mentioned. It's about as fun as eating hay in a needlestack, but you can - good point.

"Are you implying that good suits of armor can only be
found, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?
Perhaps you imply that good suits of armor are to be
guaranteed, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?"

Neither, and it's a bit insulting of you to assume that just for your own convenience. I'm implying that Treasure Hunter gives you a higher chance on early-found good armor, as shown below.

"[Insert pretty horrid reasoning about the maths]"

57 versus 98: First of all, you get 42 more items, which is an increase of 73%. And second, stop with the ID stairhopping. YES WE KNOW YOU GET ASSLOADS OF ITEMS WITH ID STAIRHOPPING. OR GREMLIN BOMBING, OR PICKPOCKETING. The entire point was that we DON'T WANT to do ANY of that, so we are discussing whether Treasure Hunter is a good replacement. 73% more loot makes it an EXCEPTIONAL replacement.

"> extra money early game

No shortage of that yellow stuff in ADOM."

Once you reach the Casino, yes. Before that, money can be an issue if you find shops with items you profit from or need divine favour. It's generally easy, if time-consuming, to accumulate money by killing monsters and taking their stuff, though, making Miser low priority. The benefit of Treasure Hunter is the overall additional treasure.

"> Through the game it means a much better chance for all of
> Gaab'Baay's ingredients early on if going for an ultra,

Much better chance? I don't know about that (as to my
knowledge, it only helps with item drops), but I will
agree about the boar skull."

And the wand of monster creation, and the scroll of danger, which are both items that have to be dropped randomly or wished for. The farmer corpse is easy to get. The potion of cure corruption is a special case: If you manage to get at least one chaotic creature to Guth'Alak, thanks to holy water, Remove Curse or Fire Bolt spell or Cooking and/or Food Preservation skill, it's trivial. If not, you have to find one randomly, and that's at least as hard as the scroll of danger.

I won't even start with the AoLS. You know how rare it is to find one randomly.



If you think in terms of receiving "guaranteed" benefits, then Treasure Hunter is indeed useless, as it doesn't *guarantee* anything. If your goal is to minimize risks for a modest gain, then you will forgo Treasure Hunter for the increases in HP and PV, or Speed and DV early. If you don't mind a little more risk in the early game, you will get Treasure Hunter so you have an overall easier time with the game thanks to the additional stuff found.

The thing with surviving the early game is that it's much less hassle to just try your luck in a straight UD dive with several characters than to do ID:1 to slowly build up one character. If my task is "Take this character and survive" then I will play MUCH more carefully than I usually do, and if I absolutely have to, I will give up Treasure Hunter. But these days, if I do play ADOM, I want to go for an ultra - and for that, I want Treasure Hunter because I know I'll need as much loot as I can get and I still don't want to use scumming.

[Grey]

gut:
> My point being, that with such items being guaranteed,
> the need to find more becomes a matter of optimization,
> rather than need. I think a better chance to survive the
> early game, is more rewarding than an improved chance at
> future (unneeded) optimizations.

It's an interesting balance certainly - I just personally don't find the other talents to be much use in the early game. Getting useful PV from them requires decent toughness, which might mean good survivability anyway. Speed has no guarantee of making a difference in a fight, though I do always choose Long Stride before Treasure Hunter in case I need to make an escape (more efficient than Quick in that respect).

Of course I'm arguing here that TH gives some extra chance of survivability early on with the right equipment finds, and you're arguing that a little extra PV or speed might make a difference in certain moments. Both are down to luck. There's no way of quantifying which gives better survival rates, and it also comes down very much to playstyle. For me I don't think the extra PV or speed would help much - with ultra careful play they aren't needed. Thus I find the extra early equipment is more useful, and that it also benefits more in the long run. In particular it's finding the right equipment that usually makes me decide to move on to the next area of the game (I won't do the puppy cave till I have some okay armour for instance).

> If one doesn't need extra
> loot to win (almost everyone, as tactics are much more
> important than items) then 'treasure hunter' sucks.

'Sucks' is a little strong there, surely? Extra items are still useful - can even mean some very nice lucky finds. Plus the extra loot can make the difference between winning and losing, or at least make the process a little easier. Even extra water is simply nice to have (holy water is possibly my favourite item in the game).

> Many players roll several PC's to get some feature they
> like, such as nice stats, complimentary star sign, or a
> particularly valuable starting item. It's annoying to
> get smashed right away, and have to re-start the process.

VD1&2 till you're level 10. It's guaranteed to make you survivable for everything to come. Take everything slowly and there's no reason to die, expcept for a very unlucky stone block or pit viper trap - for those there's no guarantee of aid from other talents (plus TH can still help). Apart from extremely bad luck there really is no reason to die in the game - it's all about slowly building yourself up. If you never put yourself in a place of risk then you have no need for those protective talents. For those who like wilder and quicker play then maybe they have a use.

> Granted, you are going to kill 400 monsters sooner or later,
> so you can get those 41 items (eventually) without the extra
> effort. I wonder though, how much extra effort it would take
> to generate those same 41 items via ID stair hopping?

Don't disgust me with that question :P By the way, just checked how many kills I tend to make in a game - seems to be around 10k average for a full game (highest 16k with a failed ULE, lowest 1600 with my 25k turns speedrun). That's 1500 items. Debatable how much use that is, but I'm willing to bet there'll be some very nice stuff worth more than any other talent in all that loot.

> No, it doesn't. It only means double, if you completely ignore
> all items not dropped by monsters.

Which is the majority of the early items found - for me at least. Maybe not if you don't use TH :P Even counting shop items, quest rewards, special finds and general floor items TH still gives an extra 50% I'd say in the early game. That's more spellbooks for priests/wizards (extremely useful early on), more chance of a good shield, higher probablility of a good ego weapon, and more utility items in general.

>> extra money early game
>
> No shortage of that yellow stuff in ADOM.

Can you read the bit that says early game? I mean pre-si. In particular the UD is a huge goldmine. And even before then the puppy vault often gives nice piles of rewards that can make the difference between getting Detect Traps early on or not (a priority for me).

> Much better chance? I don't know about that (as to my
> knowledge, it only helps with item drops), but I will
> agree about the boar skull.

Well, even if the chance isn't greatly improved (pickpocketing does make TH less of interest for the light ingredients) it still helps. Trying to get all the ingredients early on can be a big hassle, and personally I never use scummy methods to get them (other than pool-sipping for an AoLS of course - note that I have not mentioned it as an argument for TH, because very very rarely does the talent help).

> There is a guaranteed blanket from Thrundarr, which
> decreases the need for more. Just remember to doom
> yourself before going in ; )

Is that guaranteed? I thought it was one possible set of rewards. And more is always useful - I'm sure you've seen 2 blankets burn in there before ever reaching the top floor.

By the way, one other thing I'll point out is I never TP raid DarkForge, so TH is also very helpful for finding some decent adamantium armour and weapons early on, which can make a big difference to surviving the teens. I especially tend to get great item drops in the dwarven graveyard.

[gut]

Silfir, there are so many things wrong with this,
I hardly know where to start.

> Neither, and it's a bit insulting of you to assume

I was being silly there to make a point. The statement
was stupid, but the point is valid. The 'treasure
hunter' talent gives nothing but an increased chance
for item drops, and you won't see big benefits from
that in the early-game. If you kill 100 monsters,
you will probably wind up with an extra ~10 items.

> "[Insert pretty horrid reasoning about the maths]"

Mine, or Grey's? Yes, mine are wretched, but grey's
are on track.

> 57 versus 98: First of all, you get 42 more items

Funny enough, I actually wrote '42' the first time,
and almost posted that. It is indeed '41'.

> which is an increase of 73%.

You have to follow links to really understand it,
that's one reason I didn't list numbers from the start.
Grey explains it in his post, but it is in context in
the link, and makes more sense. To summarize, it does
double the item drops of killed monsters in the early
game.

> we are discussing whether Treasure Hunter is a good
> replacement.

We are discussing whether 'treasure hunter' sucks. My
position is that it does, because it is unneeded. Reason
one is because there are plenty of fine items to be found
without it (ADOM 1.0.0 didn't even have talents, and I
never went without). Reason two is because the benefits of
the talent (up to ~400 kills) can be completely replaced
by ~10 minutes of stair hopping.

Which brings us back to reason one again, you don't need
it. If you have a choice between spending ~10 minutes stair
hopping (to generate 41 extra items), or not, and you chose
'not' because of how useless it would be, doesn't that say
something about 'treasure hunter' as a talent.

I will repost what I typed earlier:
If you have no intention of using any scummy methods, and
feel no worries about surviving the early-game, then
'treasure hunter' is a valid convenience feature.

> Once you reach the Casino, yes. Before that, money can be

Again, I was reffering to stair hopping. If one isn't OK
with the guaranteed crime fighting cash rewards (~6000),
they can use stair hopping to aquire as much as they want.
On ID levels 6 and 7, it's pretty safe, and the gold comes
in ~200 gp stacks.

> And the wand of monster creation, and the scroll of danger

The wand isn't rare, at least I usually find a few. The
scroll is rare, but considering that it is rare, how likely
is it that you will have one dropped. You only get a certain
number of kills (without scumming) so only a certain number
of extra drops.There are better ways, like the ID, casino,
so on.

> I won't even start with the AoLS.

I will : ) How many kills do you have, when meeting Khelly.
You will get ~10 extra items per 100 kills. I hope in that
mess of 100 extra items, there is that amulet. Otherwise
you have to pool-sip with the rest of us.

Grey:
> Getting useful PV from them requires decent toughness,

It requires To 12 to get 1 PV point, To 15 to get 2 points.
Even elves can often start with To 12, and 1 PV is useful.
The big benefits (immune to pain) come by stacking talents,
you get there a lot earlier (in time for the ToEF) by
saying no to 'treasure hunter'.

> Speed has no guarantee of making a difference in a fight

The more you have, the closer you come to that guarantee.
+2 *can* be a life-saver, but +5 or more is better. All
the more reason to skip the worthless 'alert' and 'miser'.

> TH gives some extra chance of survivability early on
> with the right equipment finds

~10 items per 100 kills does not impress me. I can get ~10
items in the ID in two minutes (which I won't bother with).

> you're arguing that a little extra PV or speed might
> make a difference

Some think 'raven' is the most powerful star sign, just because
of the speed boost. With the speed talents, you can now chose
the 'candle' star sign and still have big speed. That makes
for a super PC, right out of the gate. Of course, if you pursue
the worthless 'treasure hunter' talent, you will have to wait
untill reaching exp. level 6, or 9 before ejoying that speed.

> with ultra careful play they aren't needed

I will concede that 'treasure hunter' also has value for the
ultra-conservative playstyle.

> 'Sucks' is a little strong there, surely? Extra items are still
> useful

Yep, very strong. To fit the parameters of 'sucks', the talent
must be seen as near worthless. As I see it, it only has value
for those that have no worries of surviving the early-game, even
if using a weak race/class combo. I'm not included in that list,
not nearly. Items are easily aquired in other ways, if one feels
the need for extra.

> expcept for a very unlucky stone block

Hardy, Extremely Hardy.

> how many kills I tend to make in a game

After reaching the casino, does one really need *more* items?
Befor the casino, your kill list isn't so bloated (at least
mine isn't). One tends to clear most temples and greater vaults
after the casino. How many of those kills came before you had
access to the ID? None.

The 'treasure hunter' talent is for those that won't scum,
and also have no worries of early-game survival. As I see it,
that is all.

> That's more spellbooks
<snip>
> good shield,
<snip>
> good ego weapon
<snip>
> more utility items in general.

All that, from an extra ~10 items per 100 kills? You must kill
a lot of early-game monsters. I don't think I kill *that* many.

> extra money early game

Stair hop.

> Is that [blanket] guaranteed?

Actually, I think class has something to do with it. I can't
remember ever not getting the blanket.

> And more is always useful

Agreed, but 'treasure hunter' is of limited use, and falls
short of other methods like ID and pickpocketing.

> TH is also very helpful for finding some decent adamantium armour

What danger level is adamantium armor again? You have to kill
several hundred monsters in that danger level, to have a decent
shot at that, even with 'treasure hunter'.

[Silfir]

"> we are discussing whether Treasure Hunter is a good
> replacement.

We are discussing whether 'treasure hunter' sucks. My
position is that it does, because it is unneeded."

That's your definition of "sucking"? If a talent sucks because you can go without it then all talents suck. Discussion ended.

And I repeat, stop bringing up the scumming methods. We know they exist. We know they make Treasure Hunter obsolete, that has been crystal clear from the beginning. I thought the point was that we don't want to use them, so we get Treasure Hunter?

[Frankie]

why killing monsters? you still can complete the game with 0 xp.
killing sucks)

don't take it personal, gut, i just _really_ can't understand what are u tryin to prove.
going for TH is a waste of 3 talents? or exploiting TH equals scummin tactics? or what?

[Grey]

gut:
> The wand isn't rare, at least I usually find a few. The
> scroll is rare, but considering that it is rare, how likely
> is it that you will have one dropped. You only get a certain
> number of kills (without scumming) so only a certain number
> of extra drops.There are better ways, like the ID, casino,
> so on.

I like to get it all sorted before the casino personally. However I do consider pickpocketing far more useful in that regard, and with a source of dooming getting the boar skull isn't a great challenge.

> It requires To 12 to get 1 PV point, To 15 to get 2 points.
> Even elves can often start with To 12, and 1 PV is useful.
> The big benefits (immune to pain) come by stacking talents,
> you get there a lot earlier (in time for the ToEF) by
> saying no to 'treasure hunter'.

Requires numerous talents itself. Getting to Steel Skin usually means getting to the point you have decent armour anyway, unless you start with several talents (in which case both it and Treasure Hunter are quite possible). It becomes very outdated very quickly. The 2 PV early on is nice to have if you otherwise have zero, but soon enough you find a few points from various sources and it becomes fairly irrelevant. Even before then it's not entirely life or death deciding - you just have to be more careful. I don't consider Immune to Pain worth getting at all.

> Some think 'raven' is the most powerful star sign, just because
> of the speed boost. With the speed talents, you can now chose
> the 'candle' star sign and still have big speed. That makes
> for a super PC, right out of the gate. Of course, if you pursue
> the worthless 'treasure hunter' talent, you will have to wait
> untill reaching exp. level 6, or 9 before ejoying that speed.

I don't think Raven is that useful personally. Speed in general is not a big issue for me, especially since I tend to be strained a lot early on. With Long Stride you can drop items and leg it when necessary, and there's also the low HP trick. Unless you're an archer or spellcaster I don't see speed helping much in regular combat (most things die before the 10&#37; extra speed makes a difference), and if you are an archer or spellcaster you usually don't need extra help killing things.

> I will concede that 'treasure hunter' also has value for the
> ultra-conservative playstyle.

Ergo it does not "suck" :P Especially when you consider that the ultra-conservative playstyle is the best playstyle ;)

> As I see it, it only has value
> for those that have no worries of surviving the early-game, even
> if using a weak race/class combo.

Personally I think I survive more with the weak ones, because I'm way more careful than normal with them... Anyway, the talent also has use for those that will happily roll through lots of characters till they hit on one that survives (which quite a lot of players do). Though you might say that the other talents could make their chars more survivable they are quite happy to have the unlucky ones die and benefit more from a long term talent like Treasure Hunter with the surviving characters that got a good start.

>> expcept for a very unlucky stone block
>
> Hardy, Extremely Hardy.

Do you ever actually choose those worthless talents? By level 5 they're quite insignificant. Choosing them on the off chance of an unlucky stone block is just ludicrous. And even so they might not save you.

> After reaching the casino, does one really need *more* items?
> Befor the casino, your kill list isn't so bloated (at least
> mine isn't). One tends to clear most temples and greater vaults
> after the casino. How many of those kills came before you had
> access to the ID? None.

After casino there's also the BDC, which is far better for items. However I do tend to make plenty of kills before then, and lesser vaults especially yield large heaps of items for me. Anyway, I wasn't talking about "need", but "want". I don't think you can talk about any need in ADOM - it's possible to survive with almost no items at all. My point was rather that over the course of the game those 3 talent choices will at least net you a few useful items that generally are worth more than any other 3 talents.

> All that, from an extra ~10 items per 100 kills? You must kill
> a lot of early-game monsters. I don't think I kill *that* many.

A bit more than 10, but yeah it doesn't look much. However when you consider it as 50% more spellbooks it looks a little better, non? Can make the difference between finding a couple of offensives or not.

EDIT: Just checked our Cicero char (who is still pining for attention) and by the time he reached the HMV, at level 13, he had over 800 kills. That'd mean maybe 120 extra items. Pretty decent in my opinion - bound to have been some handy stuff in there (and his eq was very good at that stage I'll point out, including an adamantium shield, SLBs and a battle axe of penetration).

>> extra money early game
>
> Stair hop.

I told you not to say those words! Seriously, before killing Hotzy I generally rely on black market sales for cash - all the junk I find goes there in the hope of getting Detect Traps at a reasonably early stage. Sometimes I don't kill Hotzy until way late in the game (since I might progress from the region before I can kill him easily) so there's really no guarantee of decent early cash at all (I almost never do Kranach).

>> And more is always useful
>
> Agreed, but 'treasure hunter' is of limited use, and falls
> short of other methods like ID and pickpocketing.

Limited doesn't equal either none or sucky :P I also disagree that it falls short of those methods, since it means far less effort if it happens to work. You can always do those methods on top of what you get from TH to maximise gain further. And for many items other than blankets TH is not as limited by the weight or danger level of the object.

> What danger level is adamantium armor again? You have to kill
> several hundred monsters in that danger level, to have a decent
> shot at that, even with 'treasure hunter'.

Adamantium weapons and shields can be generated in the UD, which often has several vaults. I said before it's usually a goldmine for me. Dwarven graveyard can generate the likes of dragon scale mails, and there's a fair few kills to be had in there. High Kings dungeon is another high kill area with decent danger level (enough for adamantium armour). Like I said, I normally get very decent eq before DarkForge, so obviously I'm killing enough critters in these danger levels to have it generated normally or to have TH kick in and help.

By the way, I do love these sort of ridiculously long-winded and pointless debates :)

[Silfir]

Meh. The problem with this kind of debate is the endless walls of text they tend to produce, and subdebates that are provoked, and the endless repetitions (such as gut's failure to stop mentioning ID stairhopping and gremlin bombing or what have you.)

You know, we have choices other than "Maximize loot gain at the cost of fun" and "Minimize loot gain for minor early game advantages". It's "Good loot gain without any kind of effort." I'll take that.

[gut]

Silfir:
> That's your definition [unneeded] of "sucking"?

Yes, I have the literacy skill of a turnip. I expressed my thoughts
more clearly with this:

"To fit the parameters of 'sucks', the talent must be seen as near
worthless".

That is my definition of 'sucking' in this case.

> And I repeat, stop bringing up the scumming methods

I feel that you are missing my point. I am not advising anyone to item
scum as opposed to chosing 'treasure hunter'. I am claiming both methods
to be (I won't say unneeded) *far* less useful than is popularly
believed. Plenty of items occur naturally. I believe that almost every
player would benefit more from *other* starting talents.

Frankie:
> why killing monsters?

More damage from using the word unneeded. Please refer to my other
(better) definition.

> can't understand what are u tryin to prove.

That treasure hunter is nearly useless for nearly all players, when
compared to the alternatives. *If* you play with the restriction of
'no scumming', and *if* you have no worries about early-game survival,
then this doesn't apply to you. For the other 99.9% of us, it does.

> going for TH is a waste of 3 talents?

See, you did understand.

> or exploiting TH equals scummin tactics? or what?

Well no, not that. The first one : )

Grey:
> Getting to Steel Skin usually means getting

The 'steel skin' talent is unneeded to reach the 'immune to pain' talent.
All you need is 'hardy', 'tough skin', 'iron skin', and the To and Wi
stats at 15. All easily achieved before the ToEF, but not if one pursues
'treasure hunter'.

> The 2 PV early on is nice to have

I place a very high value on PV, even up into the teens.

> I don't consider Immune to Pain worth getting at all.

We just don't agree on that. These talents don't give much, if viewed
from an later-game perspective, or from a highly item scummed
perspective. These talents *do* give you what you need, when you need
it. Extra PV and HP's at the very start, and an extra source of -fire
for the tower. This is useful because at this point in the game, the
non-item-scummer usually has only 3 sources: Elemental guantlets,
RotHK's, and the (guaranteed?) -fire ring from Thrundarr.

> I don't think Raven is that useful personally

Boy I do. As you mention, speed is somewhat managable. If you like to be
slower, that's easy... but if you like to be faster, that's a different
matter. There aren't many ways to increase one's speed in the early game,
and a few points *can* save lives.

> Ergo it does not "suck"

Having value for a small percentage of players (those that use *no* item
scumming methods, and *also* have no worries about survival), is not
enough to keep it from sucking. The 'strong legs' talent would be useful
for a larger % of players, considering that it would at least be useful
for all monks.

> Personally I think I survive more with the weak ones,

I don't. If given a choice between an anemic PC with no survival talents,
and a powerful PC with extra PV/HP's, I think I would survive better
with the uber-PC.

> talent also has use for those that will happily roll
> through lots of characters till they hit on one that survives

Ahh, the Darwinian playstyle : ) I think that even those PC's would
benefit more from early 'immune to pain' and 'greased lightning', rather
than ~10 more item drops per 100 kills.

> Do you ever actually choose those worthless [HP's] talents?

There was a time when I thought the same of them. Then I died from going
down to 0 HP's... and then it happened again... and then it happened
again... and then...

Seriously, I view them as PV against magic, help for the tower,
protection from criticals, and trap/vortex protection to some extent. I
think the fact that you can chose them early (if you wish), is their
main value.

> I don't think you can talk about any need in ADOM

More damage from using the word 'need'. Please replace the word 'need'
with the concept of '~10 more item drops per 100 kills, is near
worthless'. I just didn't feel like typing it all out every time, but
shortening it actually caused more typing : )

> over the course of the game those 3 talent choices will
> at least net you a few useful items

It's hard for me to evaluate something like that over the course of the
game. An item found at exp. level 10 may be great, but if found at exp.
level 50, it's not so great. Any finds after the casino are greatly
de-valued in my mind. Any finds after the ID is available, are also
de-valued. If you are a very skilled player, that is playing with the
'no scumming' restriction, then maybe it's different.

> by the time he [Cicero] reached the HMV, at level 13, he
> had over 800 kills. That'd mean maybe 120 extra items

I believe you just made my point for me : ) Cicero did not get the
'treasure hunter' talent until reaching exp. level 9, and he was only at
exp. level 13 upon reaching the HMV. This means that he missed out on
most of those extra items, and was still quite well equipped. Other
talents just serve better. I might also mention that Cicero's first
incarnation died, he didn't survive the early game : )

> I might progress from the region before I can kill him [Hotz] easily

This is *way* off topic, but any PC that can throw a rock can kill Hotz
very easily.

> there's really no guarantee of decent early cash

Yes, there is, but I won't mention it : ) Alternatively, you can sell ore
(and sometimes gems) from PC:2. Just don't sell until your a member.

> Limited doesn't equal either none or sucky

Perhaps I should have typed unneeded?

> it means far less effort if it happens to work

Agreed on that from the begining. It's a nice convenience feature, for
uber-skilled (or ultra-conservative) players that play with the 'no
scumming' restriction.

> You can always do those methods on top of what you get from TH

Yes, I agree that you can always get more items, regardless of talents.
I keep wanting to type 'unneeded': ) My point is that *extra* items
(sprinkled throughout the game, usually not from the start) are
*extremely* less valuable than most people think. Compared to the
alternative benefits, TH just plain sucks.

It's like playing the lottery. You spend something that has real value,
in exchange for a chance to win big. It's just not a good deal. Don't
give up real benefits for big dreams. If the extra items you recieve
happen to include an AoLS, then congratulations, you won. The other
times, you pool-sip with the rest of us. Cicero had to, despite getting
TH at exp. level 9.

> it's [the UD] usually a goldmine for me

Me too, when I do it... with or without TH. I think the difference means
so little as to be useless.

> Dwarven graveyard can generate the likes of dragon scale mails,

All you get from TH, is an increased chance of powerful items, but you
have a decent chance to start with. Again, it's the difference that is
important, and the difference means little. There is a possibility, that
TH could mean the difference between something good and junk. However,
considering how rarely I suffer from equipment deprival in my non-TH
games, I think it most often means a negligible difference. If good items
were hard to come by, then I wouldn't say that TH sucks, but they aren't,
so it does.

> I do love these sort of ridiculously long-winded and pointless debates

Agreed again : ) Tune in next week, when I declare PoGA's over-rated : )

Silfir...second verse:
> the endless walls of text they tend to produce

I hate playing with the '20 lines' restriction, but I can if you like : )

> such as gut's failure to stop mentioning ID stairhopping

Might I add, that is only in response to (as I see it) other's failure
to stop implying how *hard* items (even gold!) are to come by in ADOM.
It's just simply not true. Only in the case of restricted games, is it
true.

> It's "Good loot gain without any kind of effort."

That's an OK definition, but to my eyes it's more accurate to say:
"A bit useful for the uber-skilled... but only in restricted games."

[Lich]

Well, I looked at the YAVP posts, someone's archer had to wish for an amulet of light in the Mana Temple, and then there's my character who had to wish for wands of door creation. Those wishes were made pretty late in the game so the kill list would have been pretty long.

My character had treasure hunter, and the other one might have had it as well, but the point is, in those situations, the items would have been much more useful than a couple points of DV, PV, or speed. Of course, had those characters not chosen treasure hunter, the added chance of the killed monsters generating the wand or the amulet from getting treasure hunter would have been very significant, especially considering that those items were not particularly rare or valuable.

Besides, I don't think any character would complain about having too many potions of booze, holy water, or scrolls of identify. The treasure hunter talent is not a must-have (is any talent?), but I would rank it pretty high on the scale of usefulness.