stairscumming

[Silfir]

I thought that was Hitler?

I can cut the reference to DBZ and you just explain to me how one gets stronger by starving and sickness.

[Shadow_2014]

Wow, this conversation has just officialy gotten silly. Perhaps the reason I've never had a win is that I've never Smithed, never Gremlin Bombed, never Stairhopped, and never "Farmed". I try to just do the first 3 or 4 quests you get from the first two towns, then I usually hit the CoC and do the Dwarf's quests. Only once have I made it down to the Graveyard with a character, and with that same character I got down to the Water Temple, but it was on a friend's computer. So now I have to go track down that friend to get that character back. But I digress. If I want to win a game without feeling scummy, what tactics do you think would be best? I personally find Farming extreeemely tedious, but if it's pretty much a necessity in this game, maybe I'll start.

[warheart]

Well, farming is extremely useful, because having wi, dx and to at 25 is already a big help. If you can get stoma while farming moss and morgia, you'll get an easy precrown too, and that's always helpful. I've never smithed or used gremlin bomb/piety abuse/dragon gold doubling either, just with herb farming, winning is so much easier.

[mdrew93]

hee hee. thanks Kato. my bad. the one i was entering was like directly down from CoC.

[gut]

Shadow_2014:
> If I want to win a game without feeling scummy, what tactics do you
> think would be best?

This is the bad part of the word 'scum'. All it means is 'a repetitive
action', but people think it means that only a miserable player would
resort to such horrible actions.

I say that if you have no victory yet, you should exploit every
available way of empowering your PC's:

Smithing is fine, and there is nothing wrong with doing it. It is
however, one of the first things that you will probably drop, once you
no longer rely on it. You need a lot of items to even get started,
pickaxe, forge, anvil, hammer, lots of skill increases to the smithing
skill, and hordes of gold for pickaxe repairs. Plus, it is booooring,
even to the point where you will consider just cutting and pasting the
commands. That's when you *know* it's time to stop : )

Herb harvesting is less tedius, and more accessible. If it seems too
tedius to you, you might be doing it wrongly. If you are making herb
squares and picking until one disapears, you are wasting time. Only
that *one* withered herb bush will regenerate in that square, with
that growth cycle. The others stay as they were.

The proper way, is to 'a'pply the herbalism skill upon the herb bush,
to see it's status. There are three, and each will tell you how many
times you may pick from that bush, without fear of it disapearing.
If a bush is 'full of blossoms' you can pick 2, 'strong herbs' means
1, and 'withered' means none. When a growth cycle occurs, *all* of
the bushes in your square will increase in status. This will shorten
your gardening time considerably : )

Gremlin bombing and other item gathering exploits can be somewhat
powerful, but overall probably less worth your time. To my eyes it's
just a lot of effort, in exchange for a load of items, most of which
you will throw away or never use. That's the same problem I have with
the TH talent. The guaranteed items in the game plus the 'normal'
amount of items you find randomly, are more than enough for a win. If
however, you feel that more water potions and scrolls of identify will
help you cross the Dwarven Halls, or kill the ACW, then go ahead : )

Silfir:
> I can cut the reference to DBZ and you just explain to me how one
> gets stronger by starving and sickness.

I'll explain THAT, if you explain to me how my PC can eat 1200 stones
worth of large rations at one sitting... and never gain a single pound.

[Evil Knievel]

I also never won - and never smithed, or did the gremlin thing or used the ID (almost - once I searched there 3 hours for a fireproof blanket only to get it burned on TF3.).

I use herbs, but I do not wait for them to regrow. They grow in locations I pass by several times during the game anyway (like the big room). And that's usually enough to get herbs in abundance. That usually is more difficult without the herbalism skill.

I started to use the casino recently, since I now know how to get rid of the guard - usually the time I get myself something to eat and drink, which I don't do on other occassions.

On another occassion, with a gray elven assassin (not dead yet, but under 'quarantine'), I found a book shop on PC3. I bought all books from that shop 3 times in a row. That could be considered as scummy. I afterwards wished for concentration and maxed it. I ate the oracle then (which I only consider as scummy, as I did not find out about it myself) and wore the crown of science. That's really a boon, to suddenly become an arcane spell caster, when you already have so many other talents (like dagger mastery with serpents bite and talents like lightning shot..). Now, if a situation becomes difficult, I can counter with acid ball, ice ball or improved fireball, or even teleport away... yeah to be honest, that looks a bit scummy for an assassin.

But since I have to get my private life fixed first - I have to finish my thesis in the next 16 days - no more ADOM for me. Perhaps, that assassin mentioned will be my first winner - afterwards.

[LFk]

Just to add a word on Herbalism, the quickest way to harvest herbs is if you can manage to pacify the big room and find a single stable 2x2 square around the middle of the room.

Given that you have ~3 potions of holy water to spare, you can generate a pattern called the R-pentomino that will eventually grow to cover the entire map on it's own. If you can find a T-pattern, which is not uncommon to occur on it's own, even better, you need no Holy water at all.

I generally like to generate the pattern, and let it explode while I am in the process of pacifying the big room (usually after i get the breeder locked up), and when the room is done being cleared there are quite literally herbs everywhere. You pick the herbs clean with only minimal regard for leaving stable patterns (just pick out another R-pentomino) and by the time you are done, you should have hundreds of each. Granted this is not efficient with regards to the fact that the turns spent gathering hundreds of the curaria/alurania/pepper petal variety is simply useless, but this can easily be solved when you determine which line these herbs grow on and ignoring those specific lines.

The confines of the room can actually disrupt the herb patterns, so when you are picking the herbs, consider whether or not you will need more. If so, use a T-pattern to shift the square back to the center, to have another pentomino explosion available if the need arises.

I'm aware that this post is somewhat confusing to those who aren't familiar with what the T pattern and the pentomino are, so if you care to find out more about the R-pentomino, or generating perpetuating herb patterns, this site has a simulator and explanations you can use

http://www.math.com/students/wonders/life/life.html

One last interesting thing i'll point out is that if you're concerned with not having the herbs you want, a single T pattern
.....
.."..
.""".
.....

left over 9 generations will generate 4 oscillating lines that will contain every herb in the game with 2 repeats, as it spans 9 dungeon lines. Harvesting in this pattern is somewhat inefficient, however, as new herbs grow and die every cycle. Also, the pattern is intolerant of harvesting error. Killing a single bush will make it no longer indefinite.

[Silfir]

Treasure Hunter is awesome.

[gut]

Are you wanting to start a 'Grey and gut' style bickering contest
with me? Remember the saying about not wrestling with a pig in a
mud hole... the pig actually likes it : )

[Silfir]

Just wanted to set things straight I'd rather poke my eyeballs with rusty orcish knives than discuss this again...