Religion in JADE

[Grey]

Okay, so here's a few ideas I've been having based on the suggestions in this thread...

In ADOM characters have various levels of piety. It's an integer amount, and can be positive or negative. Getting high piety is easy by direct sacrifice. Attaining certain levels can give bonuses or punishments. You can become champion by praying with enough piety, after which you are stuck to that general alignment. When crowned though you can still drop to low amounts of piety, and can still do all sorts of things that are against your god's teaching.

Overall this system is open to huge abuse. Alignment is changed easily through saccing small amounts of gold at altars, and after gaining rewards from the god there's little risk of losing them. The actions of the character have almost no bearing on the god - it's mostly about material sacrifice in fact. Huge amounts of gold are easily attained, even early game, allowing for rich rewards without any further maintenance.

In JADE the idea expressed in this thread is for a more complex system, with different gods the PC can choose to worship at his will. The PC would get different rewards and powers from each god, and this could heavily influence their abilities. One could choose to reinforce existing powers, or use a god different from one's class to make a more multi-tasking character. This would make religion a huge influence on the character, such that you could no longer just say you're a Candle-born trollish healer - you're now a Candle-born trollish healer of Celimbra - truly the ultimate in regeneration combos! In short your chosen deity becomes as important as your chosen class, and would add a wealth of depth to your character.

So, looking at religion as a class, how about we give it levels and class powers? Piety points would act like experience points, and ascending through the levels of piety would raise your powers in accordance with that god's speciality. Piety point requirements for levelling would raise exponentially, like xp does. At specific levels you could gain titles, and with these titles new powers. In-game you wouldn't see any points - you'd just see either the levels or the titles (perhaps only priests could see the exact levels). Dropping piety is possible, and if you reduce in level you lose all the higher level's powers. This could mean that praying in the heat of a difficult battle could weaken you greatly, so you have to balance the necessity carefully.

Ideas for titles:
- Level 1, Initiate. The usual starting point - a regular member of the church. Small bonuses, if any.
- Level 6, Follower. A more involved member of the religion, granted certain extra favours.
- Level 12, Faithful. A true believer in the ways of their god, given additional favour and more respect amongst normal church members.
- Level 18, Devout. One who's life has become more centred around the teachings of their faith, and whose continued service has given them special attention from their deity.
- Level 24, Disciple. One chosen and blessed by the god to follow their path closely, and given greater favour. It is not possible to get above Disciple status for more than one god.
- Level 30, Champion. A great force in his religion that worships their lord/lady fervently. He will be given great power to help further his god's wishes. Extremely high standing in the church. (Requires special quests.)
- Level 40, Messiah. The messenger of their god, endowed with divine powers to bring to fruition all their god's desires. (Requires very special quests.)
- Level 50, Avatar. The very face of their lord on Ancardia. All they do is a representation of their god's will, and civilisations will harken to their words. (Requires extreme quests on the order of slaying other gods, wiping out cities or species, etc.)

Gaining piety is a matter of pleasing your god. Direct sacrifice is possible, but can only gain you so much. It would not be possible to simply acquire huge hordes of gold to become the messiah of a religion. Some gods would frown upon material sacrifices or living sacrifices, others might value it highly but only if done in sufficient quantities. The real way to gain piety is to act in accordance of your religion, or complete religion-specific quests. Acting in accordance with religion means your day to day actions must match your god's philosophy. Casting powerful magic gains favour with Elisio, etc. Different actions would affect your piety by different amounts. Care would have to be taken to not allow simple grinding (though exponential increases in requirements should help with that). Some positions may be impossible to attain unless you complete a high-powered quest. Lesser gods will have lesser requirements, but lower rewards.

Losing piety happens gradually over time, though is usually countered by the PC's normal actions unless he severely neglects his religion. You can also lose piety through direct actions that are against your beliefs - some more serious than others. Killing dwarves won't make you popular with Morodwyn, and chopping down trees won't put you in Aerie's good books. Serving opposing deities can reduce your standing too. Getting a very negative rating with a deity may result in them trying to curse or punish you, or sending servants out to attack you, though having high standing with a different deity will protect you from most of this. This means that life would be more difficult for atheists who don't have this protection. Being a high member of a religion and then abandoning it could result in retribution.

You have standings with all deities at all times, but will not receive any positive effect from this unless you are actually a member (nor will you be able to see your position with that god unless you are a member). At the beginning of the game you can choose from different starting religions to belong to (possibly even choosing several) based on your race/class/starsign etc (see above). Encountering temples and altars through the game can allow you to sign up for more. However you might still gain the attention of gods without worshipping them - becoming high in their powers might even make them actively try to recruit you (and spurning them could lead to bad things...)

Rewards from gods will be based on that deity's specialisation. They would generally be on the same order as class powers and talents. Some rewards would be individual powers, like summoning elementals, others would be specific bonuses to stats and skills, others would be the likes of reduced spellcasting cost. Many would have their power based on your current piety level (eg. +5 HP per piety level, or +1% magic resistance for every 3 piety levels). Artifact rewards are possible at higher levels, but the reward would be based on the god, not your class (or possibly random). There would no longer be the traditional luck/fate smiles (though some gods might grant these). With some balancing in other areas this could make Fate Smiles a much rarer and more exclusive intrinsic (which I'd say is appropriate).

Punishments from gods would include cursing and dooming, plaguing, summoning hostile creatures, energy bolting, cursing equipment, turning equipment to dust, killing companions (who may be less protected by your god), rains of acid/stone/fire, abusing stats, reducing DV, making more people hostile, reducing affection from NPCs who worship that god, tying shoelaces together, etc.

Characters can still pray to gods for aid, and usually will receive the same effects as in ADOM. HP/PP restoration, removal of dooming, etc. Piety is decreased by doing this, and certain levels of piety are needed to achieve certain things. Prayer costs increase through usage as in ADOM. Some gods will be cheaper for certain things than others. For instance Celimbra will be quick to heal, but Ssraxx is unlikely to remove dooming.

Altars can be randomly found in dungeons, but no longer are specific colours. Some may be exclusive to specific gods, and can be used to become an initiate in their faith, or converted to your own religion (if you're powerful enough). Most though would be generic, and you can sacrifice to any god at them. At high powers you can change a generic altar to one dedicated to one specific god (which would gain you piety with that god, but abuse others). When saccing at generics you would choose which of the religions you're a member of to sac to (simply pressing enter would result in saccing to your highest standing god - there would be a configuration variable to make this automatic for those that prefer). Potions can be blessed and items ided as per normal. You *can* be sacced by other creatures, and potentially any other creature around if it's a generic altar. However having a higher standing with a god will protect you from this. But if a creature is powerful it may have a higher standing with its own god to overcome this and sac you. Thus anyone with decent piety has little to fear from a standard kobold, but only the most pious can resist being sacced by a balor.

Priests and paladins might find things slightly different. Piety should be easier to gain for a start, and starting piety would be much higher. The names of the ranks would be different (things like bishop for priests). They may gain different powers or simply greater powers for each god.

[Grey]

God damn this max post length! Or maybe I should just stop writing so bloody much...

Anyway, to finish off, here's an example of my idea for the full details of a god:

Vellius - God of War
Description: The 4-armed master of all combat
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All
Initially avilable to: All fighting classes, any born in Sword
Enemy gods: None
Increases piety: Killing monsters more powerful than self, attaining high levels of weapon mastery, commanding others to attack, improving combat skills
Decreases piety: Coward tactics (note - this would indirectly make this god more difficult for wizards), running from enemies, avoiding combat (eg wilderness encounters), using stealth
Rewards:-
Level 1 (Initiate) - +1 DV per 3 levels, +1 PV per 5 levels
Level 6 (Follower) - +3 HP per level, +1 to hit per 3 levels, +1 damage per 5 levels
Level 12 (Faithful) - +3 St, extra criticals
Level 18 (Devout) - +3 To, stun resistance
Level 24 (Disciple) - +3 Dx, paral resistance, possibly random artifact (equivalant to precrown)
Level 32 (Champion) - 15% of physical attacks deflected by god's will, special artifact weapon or armour
Level 40 (Messiah) - 20% of attacks made penetrate armour
Level 50 (Avatar) - Double attacks per round, random artifact (equivalent to postcrown)

Something like this could easily be drawn up for every god. Let me know what you guys think, and in particular how this compares to Stone Soup Dungeon Crawl.

[theotherhiveking]

Okay, so here's a few ideas I've been having based on the suggestions in this thread...

In ADOM characters have various levels of piety. It's an integer amount, and can be positive or negative. Getting high piety is easy by direct sacrifice. Attaining certain levels can give bonuses or punishments. You can become champion by praying with enough piety, after which you are stuck to that general alignment. When crowned though you can still drop to low amounts of piety, and can still do all sorts of things that are against your god's teaching.

Overall this system is open to huge abuse. Alignment is changed easily through saccing small amounts of gold at altars, and after gaining rewards from the god there's little risk of losing them. The actions of the character have almost no bearing on the god - it's mostly about material sacrifice in fact. Huge amounts of gold are easily attained, even early game, allowing for rich rewards without any further maintenance.

In JADE the idea expressed in this thread is for a more complex system, with different gods the PC can choose to worship at his will. The PC would get different rewards and powers from each god, and this could heavily influence their abilities. One could choose to reinforce existing powers, or use a god different from one's class to make a more multi-tasking character. This would make religion a huge influence on the character, such that you could no longer just say you're a Candle-born trollish healer - you're now a Candle-born trollish healer of Celimbra - truly the ultimate in regeneration combos! In short your chosen deity becomes as important as your chosen class, and would add a wealth of depth to your character.

So, looking at religion as a class, how about we give it levels and class powers? Piety points would act like experience points, and ascending through the levels of piety would raise your powers in accordance with that god's speciality. Piety point requirements for levelling would raise exponentially, like xp does. At specific levels you could gain titles, and with these titles new powers. In-game you wouldn't see any points - you'd just see either the levels or the titles (perhaps only priests could see the exact levels). Dropping piety is possible, and if you reduce in level you lose all the higher level's powers. This could mean that praying in the heat of a difficult battle could weaken you greatly, so you have to balance the necessity carefully.

Ideas for titles:
- Level 1, Initiate. The usual starting point - a regular member of the church. Small bonuses, if any.
- Level 6, Follower. A more involved member of the religion, granted certain extra favours.
- Level 12, Faithful. A true believer in the ways of their god, given additional favour and more respect amongst normal church members.
- Level 18, Devout. One who's life has become more centred around the teachings of their faith, and whose continued service has given them special attention from their deity.
- Level 24, Disciple. One chosen and blessed by the god to follow their path closely, and given greater favour. It is not possible to get above Disciple status for more than one god.
- Level 30, Champion. A great force in his religion that worships their lord/lady fervently. He will be given great power to help further his god's wishes. Extremely high standing in the church. (Requires special quests.)
- Level 40, Messiah. The messenger of their god, endowed with divine powers to bring to fruition all their god's desires. (Requires very special quests.)
- Level 50, Avatar. The very face of their lord on Ancardia. All they do is a representation of their god's will, and civilisations will harken to their words. (Requires extreme quests on the order of slaying other gods, wiping out cities or species, etc.)

Gaining piety is a matter of pleasing your god. Direct sacrifice is possible, but can only gain you so much. It would not be possible to simply acquire huge hordes of gold to become the messiah of a religion. Some gods would frown upon material sacrifices or living sacrifices, others might value it highly but only if done in sufficient quantities. The real way to gain piety is to act in accordance of your religion, or complete religion-specific quests. Acting in accordance with religion means your day to day actions must match your god's philosophy. Casting powerful magic gains favour with Elisio, etc. Different actions would affect your piety by different amounts. Care would have to be taken to not allow simple grinding (though exponential increases in requirements should help with that). Some positions may be impossible to attain unless you complete a high-powered quest. Lesser gods will have lesser requirements, but lower rewards.

Losing piety happens gradually over time, though is usually countered by the PC's normal actions unless he severely neglects his religion. You can also lose piety through direct actions that are against your beliefs - some more serious than others. Killing dwarves won't make you popular with Morodwyn, and chopping down trees won't put you in Aerie's good books. Serving opposing deities can reduce your standing too. Getting a very negative rating with a deity may result in them trying to curse or punish you, or sending servants out to attack you, though having high standing with a different deity will protect you from most of this. This means that life would be more difficult for atheists who don't have this protection. Being a high member of a religion and then abandoning it could result in retribution.

You have standings with all deities at all times, but will not receive any positive effect from this unless you are actually a member (nor will you be able to see your position with that god unless you are a member). At the beginning of the game you can choose from different starting religions to belong to (possibly even choosing several) based on your race/class/starsign etc (see above). Encountering temples and altars through the game can allow you to sign up for more. However you might still gain the attention of gods without worshipping them - becoming high in their powers might even make them actively try to recruit you (and spurning them could lead to bad things...)

Rewards from gods will be based on that deity's specialisation. They would generally be on the same order as class powers and talents. Some rewards would be individual powers, like summoning elementals, others would be specific bonuses to stats and skills, others would be the likes of reduced spellcasting cost. Many would have their power based on your current piety level (eg. +5 HP per piety level, or +1% magic resistance for every 3 piety levels). Artifact rewards are possible at higher levels, but the reward would be based on the god, not your class (or possibly random). There would no longer be the traditional luck/fate smiles (though some gods might grant these). With some balancing in other areas this could make Fate Smiles a much rarer and more exclusive intrinsic (which I'd say is appropriate).

Characters can still pray to gods for aid, and usually will receive the same effects as in ADOM. HP/PP restoration, removal of dooming, etc. Piety is decreased by doing this, and certain levels of piety are needed to achieve certain things. Prayer costs increase through usage as in ADOM. Some gods will be cheaper for certain things than others. For instance Celimbra will be quick to heal, but Ssraxx is unlikely to remove dooming.

Altars can be randomly found in dungeons, but no longer are specific colours. Some may be exclusive to specific gods, and can be used to become an initiate in their faith, or converted to your own religion (if you're powerful enough). Most though would be generic, and you can sacrifice to any god at them. At high powers you can change a generic altar to one dedicated to one specific god (which would gain you piety with that god, but abuse others). When saccing at generics you would choose which of the religions you're a member of to sac to (simply pressing enter would result in saccing to your highest standing god - there would be a configuration variable to make this automatic for those that prefer). Potions can be blessed and items ided as per normal. You *can* be sacced by other creatures, and potentially any other creature around if it's a generic altar. However having a higher standing with a god will protect you from this. But if a creature is powerful it may have a higher standing with its own god to overcome this and sac you. Thus anyone with decent piety has little to fear from a standard kobold, but only the most pious can resist being sacced by a balor.

Priests and paladins might find things slightly different. Piety should be easier to gain for a start, and starting piety would be much higher. The names of the ranks would be different (things like bishop for priests). They may gain different powers or simply greater powers for each god.

I don't really like it. So, gods are grouped? you have to chose then one by one?, Its like stone soup only in the part where you can choose your god, tho, i liked the part where you can raise over champion.

Punishments from gods would include cursing and dooming, plaguing, summoning hostile creatures, energy bolting, cursing equipment, turning equipment to dust, killing companions (who may be less protected by your god), rains of acid/stone/fire, abusing stats, reducing DV, making more people hostile, reducing affection from NPCs who worship that god.

This is ok

[..]tying shoelaces together, etc.

hHHAHHAHAhahahAHAHhA

[Grey]

I don't really like it. So, gods are grouped? you have to chose then one by one?, Its like stone soup only in the part where you can choose your god, tho, i liked the part where you can raise over champion.

Grouped? No, I don't think I said anything about that. You have different gods you can worship - you can pray to several if you like. Nothing wrong with being a follower of both the Moon Goddess and Ayssia for instance. Some would be opposed to each other though, and you can only be a champion of one. Do you think a monotheistic system would be better, so you can only be devoted to one god at a time? What does Stone Soup do differently? I don't necessarily think JADE should copy stone soup wholesale, but it should be influenced by the best elements.

[theotherhiveking]

Grouped? No, I don't think I said anything about that. You have different gods you can worship - you can pray to several if you like. Nothing wrong with being a follower of both the Moon Goddess and Ayssia for instance. Some would be opposed to each other though, and you can only be a champion of one. Do you think a monotheistic system would be better, so you can only be devoted to one god at a time? What does Stone Soup do differently? I don't necessarily think JADE should copy stone soup wholesale, but it should be influenced by the best elements.

No.

I mean that gods of the same alignment should be packaged together, For Example, Chaos, Death, Nature, Balance, War...

Having to worship and find each god in his own makes it too complex, because 1) you have to find the altar, 2) Its a mess as there no organisation 3) being a worshipper of both andor drakon and a good god is, while posible, a stupid way make it even more complex in a purely non necessary way, and are likely to end getting you character pwned by a god.

[Grey]

Ah, I see what you mean... I hadn't thought about grouping gods together like that. Wouldn't work at all for the list I made above... Like I said, I was going for a Norse/Roman style of pantheon, where there aren't such clear allegiances.

Finding gods wouldn't be such a problem though, apart from the lesser ones (which I more added for flavour - these would be more of a challenge, whilst most players stick with the main gods). Most characters would start out with around 5 gods they have available due to their background (humans would probably have the most). The main gods would be easily found at any big city, with the most important being available at the first town in the game. Generic altars would be very common. Worship of numerous gods is not hugely advantageous, but it gives an extra edge. Because of piety being based on your actual activities it's easy to please related gods with the same actions, but each god is still a separate individual. Worshipping both a good and evil god is not possible (except for the three human gods) because of alignment restrictions on who can worship what god (see "Avaiable to" under each god).

I personally don't like grouping gods together like you say actually. Each should have their own distinct personality, and ones of the same type might still be unrelated to each other. Consider Lol'th, Mexiphal and Andor Drakon. They're all evil, they all appreciate a good bloodbath. Should you be able to sac to all three at once? No, because they're not related. One's a racial god, one's a general god of suffering, and one's the lord of the forces of chaos. They're all quite distinct, and potentially they're rivals. However, with what I suggested killing good people will still make all three happy. You could even make them jealous over your affection (well, not Andy - he'd likely just kill you. I included him as exotic god that you'd probably have to worship exclusively.)

Of course I don't know exactly how stone soup works - I'll really have to give it a go some time to get a feel. It could be that what I've suggested would work better in different ways - most importantly cutting down on the list of gods, I imagine.

[theotherhiveking]

Ah, I see what you mean... I hadn't thought about grouping gods together like that. Wouldn't work at all for the list I made above... Like I said, I was going for a Norse/Roman style of pantheon, where there aren't such clear allegiances.

Finding gods wouldn't be such a problem though, apart from the lesser ones (which I more added for flavour - these would be more of a challenge, whilst most players stick with the main gods). Most characters would start out with around 5 gods they have available due to their background (humans would probably have the most). The main gods would be easily found at any big city, with the most important being available at the first town in the game. Generic altars would be very common. Worship of numerous gods is not hugely advantageous, but it gives an extra edge. Because of piety being based on your actual activities it's easy to please related gods with the same actions, but each god is still a separate individual. Worshipping both a good and evil god is not possible (except for the three human gods) because of alignment restrictions on who can worship what god (see "Avaiable to" under each god).

I personally don't like grouping gods together like you say actually. Each should have their own distinct personality, and ones of the same type might still be unrelated to each other. Consider Lol'th, Mexiphal and Andor Drakon. They're all evil, they all appreciate a good bloodbath. Should you be able to sac to all three at once? No, because they're not related. One's a racial god, one's a general god of suffering, and one's the lord of the forces of chaos. They're all quite distinct, and potentially they're rivals. However, with what I suggested killing good people will still make all three happy. You could even make them jealous over your affection (well, not Andy - he'd likely just kill you. I included him as exotic god that you'd probably have to worship exclusively.)

Of course I don't know exactly how stone soup works - I'll really have to give it a go some time to get a feel. It could be that what I've suggested would work better in different ways - most importantly cutting down on the list of gods, I imagine.

Actually I mean that gods grouped DO have a relation. And theres not alignment restriction, being a dark elf should not make you evil, that's up to the elf himself.

There are 2 scales.

1) Is the alignment one, Just the normal and common things that your gods like you to do. It provides very basic bonus, and is raised with normal actions.

I.E Death likes you to kill, so killing will raise this scale.

2) god specific, Each god has one, and is raises by doing not-that-common things, provides more advanced bonuses. But in a more limited scope.

I.E

Vellius - God of War
Description: God of the swordmastery and commanding
Alignment: True neutral
Available to: All
Initially avilable to: All fighting classes, any born in Sword
Enemy gods: None
Increases piety: Killing monsters more powerful than self, attaining high levels of weapon mastery, commanding others to attack, improving combat skills
Decreases piety: Coward tactics (note - this would indirectly make this god more difficult for wizards), running from enemies, avoiding combat (eg wilderness encounters), using stealth

So killing monsters more powerful that self and having a high lvl ability with swords raises that god scale.

But killing monster less or equally powerful that self will not raise it, instead they will raise the alignment one.

Of couse this could be separated into more gods.

So if in the war alignment there are 5 gods, one likes swords, other spears, bows, axes or the other one mazes.

So mastering all of them is necessary to become the champion of the alignement.

Commaning raises vellius, defending friends (attacking the same monster) would raise other god.. etc

[Grey]

Right, I see now - very interesting. Would make for a very different style of pantheon than I was thinking.

One thing I don't like about it though is that it feels very game-orientated. Where are the real gods that day to day people worship, like the Sun and Moon or the god of Music? They wouldn't fit into simple alignment scales. A god for swords, axes, spears, bows, etc sounds so artificial and generic. I like how it works, but in my eyes it would have to be crafted in such a way that it *looks* like real gods and you would still have these very individual personalities to deities.

And the racial gods would still stand out. I do believe they should have their own alignment - dark elves that turn good would be turning their back on both their race and their god. Same with dwarves that turn bad. And the racial gods shouldn't be simply lumped into the alignment scales of other class-based gods. They will have their own effects based on their own personalities, and will only be available to those of their race that follow their philosophy.

There's a lot of different ways these sorts of things could be implemented. Ultimately it might come down to which is easier to code

With regards to tying shoelaces, I really think this is something the Joker god would do at times, especially in the heat of an important battle. You'd have to take your shoes off and put them on again, otherwise you'll trip when trying to move (wouldn't work on metal boots obviously).

[theotherhiveking]

Right, I see now - very interesting. Would make for a very different style of pantheon than I was thinking.

One thing I don't like about it though is that it feels very game-orientated. Where are the real gods that day to day people worship, like the Sun and Moon or the god of Music? They wouldn't fit into simple alignment scales. A god for swords, axes, spears, bows, etc sounds so artificial and generic. I like how it works, but in my eyes it would have to be crafted in such a way that it *looks* like real gods and you would still have these very individual personalities to deities.

And the racial gods would still stand out. I do believe they should have their own alignment - dark elves that turn good would be turning their back on both their race and their god. Same with dwarves that turn bad. And the racial gods shouldn't be simply lumped into the alignment scales of other class-based gods. They will have their own effects based on their own personalities, and will only be available to those of their race that follow their philosophy.

There's a lot of different ways these sorts of things could be implemented. Ultimately it might come down to which is easier to code

With regards to tying shoelaces, I really think this is something the Joker god would do at times, especially in the heat of an important battle. You'd have to take your shoes off and put them on again, otherwise you'll trip when trying to move (wouldn't work on metal boots obviously).

The fact is that there is NOT a god of swords, there is a god that likes people using swords, but not god of swords, in fact, each god has his own personality. If he likes swords and you use swords, he will like you more.

So, there isn't a god of anything specific , each god has is own powers, and tastes.

For example, the roman god artemisa, that godness uses a bow, she is not the godness of bows.

But if you have nice skill will bows, she will like you more, but is not needed to use a bow to please her, it just makes it easier, and if you use a bow very good, maybe her will enchant it to be more accurate, but theres a chance to that she does enchant your sword or armor, just it is more likely to happen with bows.

about the shoelaces.. first I thought it was a joke, but now is has a lot of sense, I didn't related it to that god.


Btw, what OS are you using right now?

[Grey]

The fact is that there is NOT a god of swords, there is a god that likes people using swords, but not god of swords, in fact, each god has his own personality. If he likes swords and you use swords, he will like you more.

I see - the way you put it before made it sound a little different. If each god was thought out and planned well this could be very interesting.

about the shoelaces.. first I thought it was a joke, but now is has a lot of sense, I didn't related it to that god.

Well, someone mentioned a chaotic god in stone soup that likes to poison PCs on low health etc. I imagine the Joker god as a less evil version of this, with some characteristic ADOM humour thrown into the mix.

Btw, what OS are you using right now?

Er, WinXP. Why? Is this another attempt by Epythic to hack my PC...? :P