Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: We don't want the source code

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    199

    Default We don't want the source code

    We think we do. Some of the talk around here reveals that some people, at least, regard it as the holy grail of Roguelike development - one look at the mystical source and you too can develop a game as huge and entertaining as ADOM. The impression seems to exist that whatever problems hinder us in designing our own Roguelike, the ADOM source code can cut a path through the tangle, leaving the way clear for us to make history ourselves.

    I've been thinking about this for a while. I realise I generalise - understand that it's merely style rather than the belief that every person who thinks the code should be released fits in this category, as I know that's not the case. I do, however, believe it's a common state. And I believe it's a mistaken one.

    Code in general is a complex thing at the best of times. C++ isn't a particularly simple language, and Thomas Biskup himself has described ADOM as 'spaghetti' code, a tangled and near-incomprehensible mess. Though it could be useful for small matters, such as if someone's having a problem with a particular problem (a Wish mechanic, for example), no one who isn't already experienced with programming will be able to garner anything approaching a Roguelike engine/framework from it. Those who are familiar with the language would likely have to spend hours upon hours examining the code before they could decide which bits were suitable to their purpose, and even longer before they could find a way to utilise or modify it themselves; their time would most likely be better spent crafting their own routines.

    My topic title is, in truth, an intentional fallacy; distribution of the source code does have many real benefits. Bugfixes for ADOM would not be difficult to implement, for example. And it would ensure that ADOM never dies.*

    I still do entirely believe the source code should be released, if only for these bugfixes and longevity issues. Education and improvement to the genre are entirely honourable goals; I fully support those (whose number until recently included myself) who desire ADOM's code released in order, amongst other reasons, to further their own projects. I just no longer believe it's a very suitable tool for that particularl purpose.

    Because overall, we don't *want* the source code - we want a shortcut to success. We want Thomas Biskup, peering over our shoulder in a fatherly way, teaching us, pointing out the best way we can achieve what he has achieved - and perhaps better it.


    -----------------------------------

    *To those who don't understand why the idea of ADOM dying if the source isn't released is treated as a tautology, I'll offer a short explanation. I know most people here already know this, but I've rarely seen it made explicit, so I will explain for the sake of the unaware. It involves portability issues.

    If, God forbid, TB were to drop down dead tomorrow and nobody were then to gain access to the source code, ADOM's lifespan would instantly become limited.

    As technology and operating systems in particular continue to advance, compatibility becomes an issue. I'm sure many of you have had your share of problems trying to run programs written for DOS or Windows 95 in a modern OS. Perhaps it will not be so for the next dominant operating system, or even the one after that, but eventually existing operating systems will be superceded by new ones which are incapable of running ADOM.

    Workarounds will no doubt be implemented (think DOSBox), but these will:

    • Require significant initial effort to implement.
    • Have a limited lifespan of their own (DOSBox, for example, won't be being developed in twenty years time, I guarantee that).
    • Put off prospective players by the hassle involved.


    If the source code is released, interested parties can continually port the game to new systems, ensuring the game we have so enjoyed remains playable for future generations.
    Last edited by Covenant; 02-25-2009 at 10:03 PM. Reason: Formatting

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Somewhere out there...
    Posts
    361

    Default

    You are correct. If anyone wants to make their own game, they would have an easier time writing their own spec than trying to put one together from existing source. Evidently Thomas looked at nethack's source and ended up writing his own game!

    Bugfixes, ports, UI enhancements and the like are what can be gained from ADOM going open source. I suppose the mechanics would also be out in the open, for people who care about that.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
    [*]Have a limited lifespan of their own (DOSBox, for example, won't be being developed in twenty years time, I guarantee that).
    How would the end of DOSBox development have such a huge impact? DOS itself is pretty much "obsolete", so it's not like you're constantly trying to hit a target that keeps moving further and further away.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mike3 View Post
    How would the end of DOSBox development have such a huge impact? DOS itself is pretty much "obsolete", so it's not like you're constantly trying to hit a target that keeps moving further and further away.
    Because whatever OS we're all using in 20 years time may not run DOSBox, just as it may not run ADOM. The same problem of portability applies to emulators.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    569

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
    We think we do. Some of the talk around here reveals that some people, at least, regard it as the holy grail of Roguelike development - one look at the mystical source and you too can develop a game as huge and entertaining as ADOM. The impression seems to exist that whatever problems hinder us in designing our own Roguelike, the ADOM source code can cut a path through the tangle, leaving the way clear for us to make history ourselves.
    I don't think almost anybody thinks like this?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,077

    Default

    The closed nature of ADOM makes it mysterious. I think there are still mysteries in ADOM we don't know about. This mystery gives an unique feel to ADOM, contrasted to open source roguelikes.

    That's why I supported TB's decision to keep ADOM closed source in the past.

    But nowadays, I think there is more interest in a bugfree ADOM than in these mysteries. Some could say that ADOM is dying with its mysteries. Since TB has no time to fix the bugs himself, releasing the source seems a good idea for me. We will get a bugfree ADOM, and maybe even get an ADOM version of the Stone Soup project...

    I don't think ADOM source is good for learning about anything, except spoiling the mysteries, but it does not matter. Bugfixing is the reason.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Honestly, I just would like the major bugs fixed. (The Skilled line of talents at this point should be fixed or removed. Hopefully fixed, but I can understand if they are removed. I'm a sucked for a polished game.)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    14

    Default

    I want the source code, there are bugs I want to fix

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Really, the only reason Id want the source code is to see how he makes some of the stuff work, like the random dungeon generator, stuff like that, so Id know how to use these techniques in some of my games. I always look at other games and see how they function, I dont edit the code and everything, I like credit almost 90% mine... But yeah Ive learned a bunch of C++, and I have the crawl source code trying to see how the game works and all the main stuff... I hate it when people take a game, edit like one thing and try and take full credit... Thats why games these days are only 10% original .

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    the Rocky Mountains
    Posts
    35

    Default

    I see a happy medium where one or two interested and dedicated programmers got the code and "took over" ADOM for continued bug fixes and improvements.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •