Rigid class system

[Evil Knievel]

Hey Elone,
I expected a harsh wind, but nothing like that. I wanted to propose some idea, that crossed my mind when reading the thread, and a little analysis of what comes with it. I really had no argument in mind.
I just saw, however, that if you want characters with different profiles and no classes, then you need to do something to hinder every game ending up in the same skill configuration that turned out to be best. Of course, players could restrict themselves to behaving suboptimal, but what's the point of all that then? And of course, a game could be so perfectly balanced that there is no such thing as optimal or suboptimal.

Maybe there was some misunderstanding as well..

[FONT=Courier New]Enormous learning rate? It's not unrealistic. ...

E.g. here, what I maybe not very clearly directed at was not the learning rate of the player, but the one of the character, which is pretty ridiculous. From lvl1 normal guy to lvl50 almost godlike in 90 days by training?

Unlearning is silly. If you dont want to use a skill, dont use it. If you really dont want a skill, dont learn it. There could be a potion or scroll of unlearning, or an NPC, but not something that happens in the background whether the player wants it or not.

I see, that you don't like it, but that was exactly my point. The player should choose what he wants to be proficient in. Instead of just getting a Jack of all trades.

... and they hate each other, but they both continue to exist and enjoy what they do. Why not?

I don't hate anyone. Neither had I in mind to advocate for or against anything. It is more a fact than an argument.

We? That's a pretty bold statement.

Who is we? No, probably 'want' was not the correct term. But it is what we (most of us) direct our game play way at, isn't it?

Sounds like a very very poor tradeoff to me. Analogous to sitting into a new type of car which is harder to drive, weaker in all aspects, and with less features than other cars, but the manufacturer tells you that its main advantage is that it's unlike any other car you've seen before.

Yeah, might be right, but the issue in question (as I perceive it) is adressed by that car, freeing us of certain disadvantages of the old cars. It does bring new disadvantages, but they could be worked on as well. So, that's all to this from my side.

[Epythic]

Interesting topic.

I absolutely agree that classes should not matter that much. I think it should just be some kind of training. Why have classes at all? We are all adventurers, arent we?

Let the player pick two or three "classes" (<--need new word here) when the game begins. This adjusts his initial skills, maybe gives him some special abilities. Then, later in the game, allow the PC to improve his skills/abilities or get new ones by doing something.

Want to walk? Need feet (get ability; get for free at char generation)
Want to get faster? Run a lot.
Want to cast spells? Read a book (= get ability), then practice practice practice (= train it; do sth about your failure rates).
Want to cast more powerful spells? Practice the less powerful spells, then read a more complicated book, and practice.
Want to use a sword? Find one (= get ability), then practice, practice. Extra points if you find a teacher.

I certainly want my character to be able to do everything. No wait, let me repeat that: EVERYTHING. Given enough time.

Ok, one exception here: the race. Trolls *are* huge and have small brains, so it should be hard for them to be stealthy and to learn new things. Drakelings have this temperature problem, and so on.

[sgeos]

Keep in mind that classes are sort of like system imposed "challenge games".

[Elone]

@ Epythic

The post got me thinking. What I've been aiming at, races should be more restrictive and classes should be less restrictive (or nonexistent). Think. It's the other way around in Adom.

I really like the idea of being able to learn everything! THEN if I dont want all of it, I can specialise myself and NOT learn a skill I dont want.

@ Evil

I know that this may have seemed like an argument, but rest assured I dont feel like I'm in mid of one. There's no negative energy in my words. I like fiery discussions which give a challenge to my discussion opposites. They get motivated to come back at me with even better arguments in return, which is (in case of ideas) almost always good. Sometimes they fail at that, but it's always worth a try. I'd try to reply to your post now, but it's hard to quote everything, and still keep it reasonably easy format-wise.

@ sgeos

If you want to learn other things, grind? Yes, but.
1. As I said, everyone should have the same learning potential. Wizards arent defected that they need double the marks or something. I'll grind to reach the level of a swordsman, but then we're equal, and from there on I want to continue just like him.
2. As I said, not even 1000 picked herbs will give you the skill of Herbalism if you didnt have it initially or from a NPC. I wouldnt mind grinding for it if I really needed it, but not getting the skill even after 100 or 1000 picked herbs is ridiculous.
3. As I said, races should provide more limits than classes, and not the other way around.
4. Classes are quite a restrictive challenge, but restriction is reserved for those who already know enough about the game. When you play Adom and you ask if you should try a nonscumming game, you are rather often told to get your first win in any way you can.. and only think about no-scum game later.

[RndmNumGenerator]

Instead of making it so all classes are equally good, I think it would be good if different classes(and races) had set limits. For example, a Trollish Figher would have a maximum strength of 85, and regardless of how many Potions of Strength he found after reaching 85, it would never go over 85. A Grey Elven Wizard would have a maximum strength of 55. If both the Troll and the Elf had a Strength of 45, they would fight equally well, but the grey elf would never be able to surpass the troll if the troll traisn as hard as the elf.

[sgeos]

1. As I said, everyone should have the same learning potential. Wizards arent defected that they need double the marks or something. I'll grind to reach the level of a swordsman, but then we're equal, and from there on I want to continue just like him.

FWIW, I do prefer systems where the limits are not based on class, but on character. Ie, I might start a wizard who has an aptitude for swords. This character will train more effectively with swords than your average character. Also, I like the idea of wide open learning. I also like the idea of a lifespan. Ie, you *could* learn everything, but you won't live that long. In that case, shorter lived races would learn faster, but longer lived races would ultimately learn more in the long run.

2. As I said, not even 1000 picked herbs will give you the skill of Herbalism if you didnt have it initially or from a NPC. I wouldnt mind grinding for it if I really needed it, but not getting the skill even after 100 or 1000 picked herbs is ridiculous.

In this particular case, I disagree. Practice makes permanent, not perfect. If you don't know what you are doing, and you keep ripping herbs out of the ground, you won't get better at tending herbs if you continue your misguided behavior.

3. As I said, races should provide more limits than classes, and not the other way around.

Basically agree. I could see learning class skills at the normal rate/cost and non-class skills at double that.

4. Classes are quite a restrictive challenge, but restriction is reserved for those who already know enough about the game.

Some classes are easier/simpler than others. This is intentional.

[Sradac]

As much as I agree with you elone, im just worried it would dilute the point of a class and become something more along the lines of morrowind or oblivion where you have a character thats a master swordsman running around in huge ebony plate armor thats able to cast the most powerful spells in the game, being literally a tank able to destroy entire groups of enemies without taking a scratch. Course most people that play roguelikes arent as much of maximists as people that play mainstream games like oblivion, it can still happen.
I know some people dont like the idea of skills decaying but I do. If you start the game as a swordsman and are pretty adept with your blade but you decide to pursue arcane arts and focus on your spells for a long time only using your blade in emergency situations, i believe ignoring your martial skills for a few months to read books and cast cantrips you wouldnt be at the point you were starting your career.
Im a good example of this IRL, I took 10 years of tae kwon do and won several tournaments, but other parts of my life took over having to work all the time and go to school, i stopped going to class and my skills have suffered. I still remember everything I learned, but my body does not. Muscle memory is a large part of martial arts and if you neglect to practice you wont be as flexible, your body wont be able to pull off those kicks and take downs the way it used to.
Maybe skill "decay" is a bit harsh, maybe a penalty for going X amount of weeks without using a skill. your skill is still at the same level but its not as effective as it was, if you decide to take up that skill again it wont take long to get back to where you were. That way you cant run around blasting everything with fireballs then when you finally run out of mana whip out your jagged blade of mourning and get a crit hit for 500 dmg. just my idea.

[sgeos]

For a game to be rewarding, you need to struggle through it. A lot of people are turned off when you present struggles they are not familiar with. Ie, they don't want to have to leave their safe haven and think in new ways.

[Laukku]

Wasn't JADE going to be classless? I remember TB saying that there will be different guilds one can join instead.

[sgeos]

It sounds a fair bit like Omega. Was ADOM inspired by Omega?