Big alignment loss from pickpocketing undead?

[Erik Piper]

Whenever I'm in graveyards I tend to already see a big alignment loss just from pickpocketing the undead, even without robbing graves. Even an amulet of balance doesn't suffice to keep me L unless I tone down the pickpocketing. While I recognize that there is alignment loss for all pickpocketing, it seems abnormally high when pickpocketing the undead in a graveyard. Maybe it's just about the sheer density of pickpocketing targets when in a graveyard though?

[vogonpoet]

Are you eating them after picking their pockets perhaps?

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Oh, come on. Picture yourself in real life, pickpocketing a zombie. Have you ever seen zombies? They are slow and clumsy! They can't react quickly enough to your evil skullduggery! Pickpocketing a zombie is like pickpocketing an old crone in the church. It's even worse. After all zombies are even older.

No, seriously. I think it's what you say. Pickpocketing non-hostile monsters drops your alignment in general, and in the graveyard there are a lot of monsters so if you pickpocket a lot your alignment drops a lot, nothing else. If you don't want that you can always make them hostile before pickpocketing.

[Silfir]

As in, make sure they see you before you pickpocket them. Are you permanently invisible by any chance?

(There is also the option of just not bothering to pickpocket. Kleptomania and Lawfulness generally don't mesh together well.)

[Erik Piper]

Silfir, your theory sounds the most interesting and seems tied with Al-Khwarizmi's "yeah, it probably is just the density" for the Most Supportable Theory award. I am indeed permanently invisible.

Interestingly, the alignment dive bomb seemed to slow down after I hit NL. While pickpocketing alignment drops always seem a bit slower when I'm in N, the delta seemed higher here.

vogonpoet, this was separate from corpse eating alignment drops (which have also been taking off a chunk), but thanks for the idea all the same.

Ultimately it's all the same in this game since I planned to and have now already started to gravedig the graveyards in a big way (have already dug every grave in the CoC and then climbed back up to L via an altar); it's not a problem to go back to L via altar towards the end of this swing eastward. I'm asking more in order to understand the phenomenon in the future, and just simply because it's interesting.

[Sami]

Picking non-hostile monster's pockets often drops your alignment (by 50 iirc) and picking hostile monster's pockets never drops your alignment (at least when they are attacking you). So you can completely avoid alignment drop by angering them by attacking them before applying pickpockets.
Also amulet of balance does not slow alignment changes if you aren't neutral. When you are neutral it slows alignment changes significantly (iirc to 1/8 when blessed + rounding).

[Erik Piper]

Do you know what qualifies as hostile for this? The critters certainly are marked as hostile when I [L]ook at them. I take it then that being unnoticed affects this? (And that it also happens when one is unseen due to Stealth skill?)

Incidentally, any thoughts on an attack out there - if any exists at all - that has a high hit rate (so as to minimize annoyance) but low damage and a low or zero critical chance? While it's not worth the effort IMO for avoiding pickpocketing alignment loss, it'd be nice to have some more tools in the toolkit for dealing with cats.

Double-incidentally, luring creatures to an altar when you're perminvisible is a PITA.

Interesting news about amulets of balance btw.

[Grey]

If they can see you and are hostil to you then you can pickpocket them without alignment loss. Pickpocketing anyone that can't see you will always be a chaotic act.

As for a low damage attack, my prefered choice is kicking.

[Twinge]

The theory presented is the correct one, and it's an issue that's annoyed me more than once. I tend to follow Grey's route and give a swift kick before fingering their pockets. A missile shot is often appropriate too. You might accidentally kill one or two, but generally a lot better than losing your invis. Basically if they haven't seen you they're probably only 'Slightly Hostile', and still prone to the alignment penalty. Since there's such a large mass of creatures spawns as slightly hostile in the graveyards, it is one of the most noticeable places you'll see this effect.

Pickpocketing is -50 stones, But will not drop you beyond the edge of N-/NC.
Digging graves is -100 stones (more for Griff's).
Eating Wights/Wraiths/Spectres/Vampires is -500 stones.

And Sami is correct than an Amulet of Balance won't work unless you're Neutral. This explans why your drop slowed down so quickly once you became neutral. (That, and Neutrals tend to slow down alignment changes oddly to begin with.)

[RndmNumGenerator]

Yeah, whenever you pickpocket from a monster that isn't fighting back(includes both non-hostiles and hostiles that can't see you), it causes an alignment drop. When you pickpocket from a hostile monster that is attacking you, there is no drop. Though there is something funny I noticed the other day...