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Thread: Evolutionism vs creationism

  1. #291
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    Get back to me when something simalar happens outside of a laboratory. You have now proven conclusively that which every religionist on the planet could have told you before you started. To wit to get much more than terribly minor changes within a species requires intelligent interference in the natural order of things.

  2. #292
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    I read the wiki article and was slightly impressed. But there still exists several doubts which this experiment does not address. I am also slightly wanting to agree and disagree with garyd. While this experiment is done within a laboratory with very controlled variables of climate, this is for testing purposes since it becomes extremely hard to do comparison tests in the natural environment. The use of E. coli in particular raises some concerns about this test. It is a very simple bacteria, both in comparison to other bacteria and to other organisms, and is already known for having frequent mutations, both natural and experiment-induced.

    In other words, this is kid's-stuff test on evolution. There should be other groups foaming at the mouth for some funding to conduct some more complex experiments using this one as proof of concept.
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  3. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyd View Post
    Get back to me when something simalar happens outside of a laboratory. You have now proven conclusively that which every religionist on the planet could have told you before you started. To wit to get much more than terribly minor changes within a species requires intelligent interference in the natural order of things.
    Did you actually look at what they demonstrated? Let me spell it out:

    -Species are able to greatly increase their fitness to their environment through purely through random mutations and asexual reproduction
    -Species are able to use successive neutral or beneficial mutations to build up a complex change
    -Purely through the processes developed above, a species is able to develop a hugely beneficial trait that completely changes its relationship with its environment and allows it to easily out compete all of its parent generations
    -This can happen over relatively short periods of time

    If religionists believe that, I don't see anything more that really needs to be discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by fazisi
    I read the wiki article and was slightly impressed. But there still exists several doubts which this experiment does not address. I am also slightly wanting to agree and disagree with garyd. While this experiment is done within a laboratory with very controlled variables of climate, this is for testing purposes since it becomes extremely hard to do comparison tests in the natural environment.
    Well, yes, obviously it's harder to repeat the experiment in nature because you can't control as many variables. That's sort of the point of doing a controlled experiment. In this case, they showed that mutation alone is sufficient to generate new, beneficial traits. If I want to test Newton's Three Laws, I'm not going to do it by trying to figure out whether I can use them to calculate the trajectory of a thrown boomerang in a windstorm--I'm going to test them on something simple, where I can control for variables that aren't interesting, to test only the relationships that I care about. Once the principle is established, then I can see how it responds to other influences. This is how science works. But the thing is, I don't need to be able to figure out how a thrown boomerang behaves in a windstorm to be able to establish that Newton's Laws work exactly the way that theory predicts they will.

    I point out that many well-accepted theories have been accepted on the basis of a single effective experiment. General relativity worked pretty much this way. The nuclear model of the atom was too. And the Copernican model of the solar system. I'm sure I could come up with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by fazisi
    In other words, this is kid's-stuff test on evolution. There should be other groups foaming at the mouth for some funding to conduct some more complex experiments using this one as proof of concept.
    I'm sure there's other research groups looking for ways to enhance this work (this experiment is still technically ongoing AFAIK). The proof of concept is the really important part anyway.
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  4. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyd View Post
    Get back to me when something simalar happens outside of a laboratory. You have now proven conclusively that which every religionist on the planet could have told you before you started. To wit to get much more than terribly minor changes within a species requires intelligent interference in the natural order of things.
    Lets see.

    Terribly minor changes, yes?

    Well they only waited for 20 years.

    Multiply that and those minor changes by, say, 200.000.000 [1] and there we are.

    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Origin_of_life -> "Evidence suggests that life on Earth has existed for about 3.7 billion years.[40]"
    Of course it's unfair - that's the whole point.

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  5. #295
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    20,000 generations in 20 years. 200,000,000 million years, let's see 20 generation in 20 years 1 generation in a year oh 40 trillion years? Estimated age of the universe 15 billion years. We went from Ambulocetis a 15 footer, that was very much amphibious to Busilosaurus a spem whale sized critter in fifteen million years that is purely aquatic. Sorry not happening.

  6. #296
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    > -This can happen over relatively short periods of time

    50K generations = short? For humans, 50K generations would be 2.5 Million
    years... to develope the ability to eat a different type of leaf.
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  7. #297
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    g
    Quote Originally Posted by garyd View Post
    20,000 generations in 20 years. 200,000,000 million years, let's see 20 generation in 20 years 1 generation in a year oh 40 trillion years? Estimated age of the universe 15 billion years. We went from Ambulocetis a 15 footer, that was very much amphibious to Busilosaurus a spem whale sized critter in fifteen million years that is purely aquatic. Sorry not happening.
    Try again.

    The wikipedia article said has existed for 3.7 billion years, thats roughly 4 billion.
    So how many times do 20 years fit in there?
    4.000.000.000 / 20 = 200.000.000. Thats how I arrived at the "multiply by ..." number.

    Now, in those 20 years there were ~ 30.000 generations.
    In 4 billion years, thats 30.000 * 200.000.000 generations.

    So right now we are at generation 6.000.000.000.000.
    For comparison: the human DNA has roughly 3.000.000.000 base pairs (not all of which carry useful information, as far as is currently know)

    EDIT: It might be tempting to also cite some mutation rate, but thats not nearly as easy, because of various DNA repair effects, different encodings (DNA/RNA), changing mutation rates (like for example if you live close to some radiation source), changing genome size and stuff like that. At least those are the reasons I can think about right now, and I dont know much about the topic.
    Last edited by Epythic; 09-03-2010 at 09:31 PM.
    Of course it's unfair - that's the whole point.

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  8. #298
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    both. If you know anything about the universe you would know everything works perfectly, and in such a complex way that it couldnt possible be a mistake, or just a random combination of elements and physics. Evolution is already proven. Things are created, then adapt.
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  9. #299
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    You are aware of course that there is a difference in the breeding rates of Bacteria and larger animals? As a general rule the larger the creature the longer the gestation peroiod and the smaller the brood and the longer it takes to get to sexual maturity. And no one has yet come up with much more than a best guess as to where bacteria and viruses may have come from. No one is really arguing about the fact that changes occur within a species all though exactly what constitutes a species is still up for grabs. All species of Canids seem able to interbreed and produce pups than can breed as well perhaps meaning that the canids would be a species rather than a family. On the other hand most big cats while they can interbreed produce sterile Hybrids that cannot produce offspring of their own.

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