Tell new players which R/C combos are easiest
issueid=1434 12-13-2012 02:57 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Al-Khwarizmi: 61
Tell new players which R/C combos are easiest

This is a suggestion to make the early game easier for newbies, while not changing the game itself at all.

One of the features of ADOM that most of us like is that races and classes are deliberately not balanced, instead, some are more challenging than others. But new players have no way of knowing that, e.g., a drakeling wizard is easier than a human ranger. They can have some slight ideas (farmers look difficult, etc.) but it would be good to tell them directly.

In DCSS (or at least in some version of it), the system to do this was that when you chose your R/C combo; easy, medium and hard combos were highlighted in different colors.

Apart from that, it also had two or three specific suggestions for new players: an easy melee class, an easy caster class, and... I don't remember, maybe an easy archery class or something like that.

I think implementing one of those two things, or maybe both at the same time, would make it easier for beginners to start playing ADOM without really changing the game balance at all.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1434
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 8
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 9
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 4
Votes against this feature 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-13-2012 06:06 PM
Ancient Member
Maybe add a few suggestions to the manual. I don't know which combos are easiest, but I'm sure somebody can come up with a few.

12-13-2012 06:38 PM
Ancient Member
Being realistic, most players won't read the manual before playing. I think this information should be directly on the character selection screens.

12-13-2012 06:55 PM
Ancient Member
I'm not trying to be otherwise, but how is somebody going to know how to play, if they don't read the Manual?

Maybe do as you suggest and mark races in green, orange and red and then classes the same way using some algorithms. With a key at the top stating green=easier orange=medium red=harder purple(CK)=hardest.

But I would still put something in the manual.

12-13-2012 07:04 PM
Senior Member
Human barbarian is easier than drakeling barbarian.
But human mindcrafter is harder than drakeling mindcrafter.

That's about marking races and classes.

12-13-2012 07:15 PM
Ancient Member
I don't think Human Barb is easier than Drake Barb...

Anyway, I think if you tried to rank R/C as hard/etc it would probably lead to a lot of unneeded controversy. I do think that having a few (maybe even more than 3!) suggestions of easy classes is a good idea although perhaps it is not really sufficient (for example, Dwarf Monk taking +PV talents is an incredibly easy starting class, but not that easy w/o them; HE Archer is incredibly easy after mid-game, but can be a little tough to start out sometimes). Something to meditate on when considering what is easy.

This probably has a higher chance of being implemented if people start suggesting some easy combinations for newer players; my choices: Dwarven Beastfighter, Drake Wiz, Hurthling Archer, Orc Barbarian.

12-13-2012 07:28 PM
Ancient Member
I don't think that there is any class where you'd be better off playing a human over a drakeling.

12-13-2012 08:46 PM
Ancient Member
Perhaps the feature request is a re-worked 'how to start' section.

I'd have it be more prominent in the manual - closer to the top of the list, or even available from the initial prompt.

Then have it suggest a few easy R/C combos to run, and maybe a few other avenues to explore.

12-13-2012 10:54 PM
Pim Pim is offline
Member
When I first started playing all those years ago, I always favored farmers, often orcish farmers, because it's the only class that gets a cooking set, and it helped me avoid starvation. But I still never got very far.

Years later I found a guidebook which told me that farmers were universally considered one of the most difficult classes.

Anyway, I like this suggestion.

12-14-2012 01:39 AM
Senior Member
Yup. This fixes your problem of the hard start: Even the worst players should do reasonably good with orcish barbarians. Don't need to do anything else to make the start easier.

12-14-2012 01:49 AM
Senior Member
How about adding an option on the main screen that takes the player to the (new) section of the manual covering "what to expect". It could include both R/C combos that are hard or easy in the early game (combos that are harder in the late game are fine, because players who are new aren't likely to get to the late game before getting more experimental with their choices) and a description of things you'll want to visit up to the ToEF. The ToEF itself could be left somewhat cryptic, with comments like "you'll want to be able to handle extreme heat and to be capable of digging through rock". I wouldn't have the water temple covered - stop perhaps at Khelavaster in the CoC (with perhaps a subtle reference to life saving).

12-14-2012 02:23 AM
Ancient Member
Keeping in mind that new players are going to want to try out all the styles of monsterkilling available, I'd put in a recommendation for orcish barbarians for melee and the first steps into the game, high elven archers for missiles, and either gray elven or gnomish wizards for spellcasting.

12-14-2012 03:15 AM
Ancient Member
While I don't think anyone with some experience has problem managing elves, I think their low To/HP is a significant barrier for new players. I don't see them as part of a good starting combination except on caster-types, really (and even then..).

12-14-2012 04:43 AM
Ancient Member
I'd recommend gnome elementalist, troll barbarian, dwarven paladin and high elf archer. It's not just about strongest combos, but easiest start and most simplified gameplay. Trolls are good for that sheer simplicity of play, for instance. Same with elementalists, who have spells to play with just through level ups.

12-14-2012 08:28 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
I don't think that there is any class where you'd be better off playing a human over a drakeling.
Barbarians (amulet of luck and 2H sword vs heavy spear), archers (long bow and leather armor vs scurgary and no armor), priests (everburning torch).
Didn't try other variants, but humans are good for classes with normal eqipment.

12-14-2012 09:21 AM
Ancient Member
Drakeling spit + high physical attributes + Alertness > Humans for every class. While comparing starting equipment can be meaningful, it's a pretty minor aspect without a very significant difference in PV. Just taking Drake Barb: it has incredible stats, far outpacing stoopid Humans, which allows it to true berserk all the way to DT with absurd ease. You will destroy everything in your path. A 2H sword and an amulet of luck just can't replace those stats, much less drakeling spit.

12-14-2012 09:37 AM
Ancient Member
If TB says he's willing to implement the suggestion about 3 or 4 class suggestions for newbies in the selection screen, we can always use a forum poll to choose. I think three representative, easy classes would be orc barbarian, drakeling wizard and hurthling archer, but adding a gnome elementalist instead of the wizard is also tempting.

Anyway, it's not as if we need to chose THE easiest 3 or 4 combos (which probably depends on each person's playstyle anyway). With choosing 3 or 4 that are easy enough, that would help newbies.

12-14-2012 10:04 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
If TB says he's willing to implement the suggestion about 3 or 4 class suggestions for newbies in the selection screen, we can always use a forum poll to choose. I think three representative, easy classes would be orc barbarian, drakeling wizard and hurthling archer, but adding a gnome elementalist instead of the wizard is also tempting.

Anyway, it's not as if we need to chose THE easiest 3 or 4 combos (which probably depends on each person's playstyle anyway). With choosing 3 or 4 that are easy enough, that would help newbies.
Couldn't you even have a dozen total recommended combinations, but only have a random three or four appear when you select that option?

12-14-2012 10:09 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
While I don't think anyone with some experience has problem managing elves, I think their low To/HP is a significant barrier for new players. I don't see them as part of a good starting combination except on caster-types, really (and even then..).
I would be inclined to agree, except on high elven archers. They have tremendous ranged firepower, and a lot of arrows to dish it out with - and they wear elven chain mail on top of it all, giving them a healthy 5 PV even if they end up meleeing. There are no easier archers, I think; all the sturdier races start with less ammunition and/or less Dexterity. I don't think it takes long for a new player to realize that the solution to every problem on a high elven archer is to shoot it. Though I guess recommending a dwarf wouldn't be a bad idea either; they have the ammo and the armor, even if they don't have the Dexterity.

12-14-2012 01:27 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
Drakeling spit + high physical attributes + Alertness > Humans for every class. While comparing starting equipment can be meaningful, it's a pretty minor aspect without a very significant difference in PV. Just taking Drake Barb: it has incredible stats, far outpacing stoopid Humans, which allows it to true berserk all the way to DT with absurd ease. You will destroy everything in your path. A 2H sword and an amulet of luck just can't replace those stats, much less drakeling spit.
How does archer need your spit? And stats are not so different. They don't have trollish strength and humans are not that tough.
The difference would be maximum of 4 str and 4 to. It's 2 damage, 2 to-hit, and a bit health. Well, in some cases, it's 2 PV. By the time drakeling finds equipment, human can find herbs. The only thing is alertness, but for assasin, monk, archer it doesn't matter.
Humans have higher learning, mana, dexterity. For archer it makes difference. For priest it makes a lot of difference. For barbarians not so much, but strength is more than covered by difference in weapon. And luck is not a thing to be useless. It really can save a life.

01-09-2013 05:24 PM
The Creator
I added startup hints. I recommended:
- dwarven paladins
- high elven archers
- gnomish wizards or elementalists

+ Reply