I'd rather have it not generated at all for lawfuls.

Ah, but that's half the fun! Do you fall from grace in exchange for power (answer: aBsOlUtElY!) or do you skip it entirely?

I disagree about them all being non-hostile to lawfuls to start. Otherwise you can just :s through the entire vault and grab the artifacts with little hassle.

What if they turn hostile when you try to swap places or pick up an artifact, too?

The reason I suggested this is because I fear it would otherwise be annoying to have all the unicorns teleport to you when you didn't intend to disturb them.

These would be cool for chaotic characters, but not so much for neutral or lawful ones. If I encountered one of these on a crowned neutral character, I would just avoid it entirely. On a crowned lawful character, I'd see if I could manage to land myself a couple of free artifacts without angering anything, but teeport away and ignore it entirely otherwise.

If this could be limited to only being generated for chaotics, or at the very least, if the guaranteed greater vault cannot be of this type, then I'm in favour. Otherwise, I'm opposed.

If the unicorns were fairly deep in the vault (strongest or second strongest monster), they shouldn't start teleporting unless the PC has already moved quite far into the vault, I don't think.

Picking up any artifact would immediately anger them.

The complaint, imo, is that this would introduce monsters that you should not kill & rob if you want to be considered lawful. I actually see this as an advantage.. introduces a roleplay decision.

The proble that I have is that it doesn't feel like a meaningful decision. I just find it difficult to imagine situations in which I'd be willing to become a fallen champion. Obviously, it isn't worth it for an aspiring ultra ending, but even for a regular character, I just wouldn't want to lose the blessing, the decreased food consumption, and the piety. Maybe if I saw that there was an artifact bracer and an artifact necklace inside then it would be worth it, but in the vast majority of cases, not worth it.

So, for me, these would not add any extra fun to the game. Instead they could subtract fun by taking up space where other fun things could be. If it was just taking up a random half a level, then sure, I can live with that. But if it's stopping a different type of greater vault being generated, one which I would find fun, then I consider that to be enough of a downside not to want to see this.

I find it thematically problematic to have a large number of intelligent higher lawful beings deep in the CoC guarding artifacts. Especially if the end result is that they provide a chance for extra artifacts only to chaotic (or soon to chaotic) beings.

I'd be willing to become a fallen champion for a lot of experience, tons of items, and artifacts any day, so I think it's a perfectly fine & meaningful decision. (I don't do ultras, though). I don't see a problem with this from that perspective--if you don't want to take the risk, don't, but let's not pretend being a fallen champion is some kind of death sentence or even remotely increases the difficulty of the game.

I agree with this. Why would a fortress of this many lawful creatures be this deep in the CoC, and not want to help a lawful (or possibly even neutral) champion who has the intention of saving the world?

They are there because they're desperately trying to defend the world against the incursions of chaos. They don't give their possessions to the hero for the same reason the hero does not give his possessions to the inhabitants of fortress: it belongs to them and they need it for their own survival.

Upvoted! This is a pretty challenging vault, and one none of my PCs would have any qualms about clearing ;)

But I see the concern for neutrals and lawfuls. Perhaps this one could only be generated to C (and maybe N) PCs, and there could be an uber ChAoS vault for the other side of the spectrum?

What I don't like about this that greater vaults are a rare enough occurence as it is. A lawful greater vault might be the only you get all game - but unless you're willing to fight the forces of good to take their stuff (i. e. playing a chaotic character), you don't get anything from it.

a GUV could be all you get all game, and unless you want to be stat drained to death and summarily executed while you walk around permanently confused, you won't take that on in 90% of games either. At least this one is actually very possible and only has a drawback of falling from champion status (which, as I mention, is not a big deal, since you can just rejoin and get your piety up later. or just walk around C- the rest of the game).

But all of the other lawful creatures are jumping at the chance to help a lawful PC who has proven himself. All the quests in Terinyo? Thrundarr's quests? Khelavaster spread the prophecy of the hero who would stop the incursion of chaos to every intelligent race in the world. All of the lawful groups of people in the game are trying to help you. It still doesn't make sense to me for this group to not want to.

Those threat rooms of white unicorns that you see now and then are certainly not trying to help you.

I don't really think that's a fair comparison. Threat rooms are (mostly) random monsters, this is a scripted encounter.

That being said, if white unicorns weren't on the list of monsters that could be generated in a threat room, and someone was suggesting they should be added, I would be against that too.



I don't argue that it isn't an interesting choice, but I also believe story is important, and story wise, it doesn't make sense for a lawful hero to kill other lawful creatures.

I've done Greater Undead vaults - they can be quite doable depending on layout, the power of the character, and patience. Also, no one is ever going to have any objections to obliterating undead. If you actually care about roleplaying, with a lawful character a lawful vault is strictly off-limits.

First off, the chance of getting only a lawful vault and no others would be very small, much smaller than the current chance of not getting any vault.

Secondly, there is currently very little reason in the endgame to want to be C. If you're chaotic, you'll be corrupted faster and you get a few nice extra corruptions when crowned as a bonus. In return, where's the advantage? Gravedigging isn't possible beyond the midgame, pickpocketing a waste of time. Eating undead not worth it. Casino can be robbed fine without real danger of falling from grace. From half the midgame, being L or N offers massive protection against corruption with no relevant downside. A small possibility of generating a lawful vault would be a very small bonus for chaotic characters.