While I like the idea of having that assassins guild a location with available quests, I think that having them train skills--particularly those skills--is a bit excessive unless they are very, very difficult to get. Perhaps in exchange for assassinating some NPCs of some repute--Gaab'Baay, Kherab, Casino Shopkeeper, Khelevaster (if he's been saved), etc.

Backstabbing and TWC are also available through other means ingame already...

I like the idea of the assassin prince offering more than the one quest in future versions, but not the idea of the guild accepting the PC as a member.

Yes to the general idea, but with JellySlayer's caveats. Otherwise everyone would jump on Alertness and, FW.

I like it!

JellySlayer: I realize, but I figure it'd make people who want to keep the Golden Gladius (I hear some duelists like it) or whatever a bit happier, and those skills can be taught, but not trained. You'd still have to give up Tactics, though. Maybe one of the quests would be to assassinate Bart? (some debt he neglected to pay from his gambling habit...)

Grey: Melee classes already have it significantly harder than spellcasters, and the Assassin's Guild comes late enough (by the time you get there, make it to the AP, and do his quest and get entry) that I don't see getting Alertness and FW as a *huge* advantage. It's not like the early game where it's saving your life, at this point the best part of Alertness is avoiding item destruction. (since you should already have the AMW at this point to avoid death rays) I guess it would help in the tower a lot. Still, it should be expensive, and difficult to get. Maybe as a reward for assassinating the Minotaur Emperor or something.

Also, what if instead of getting these from the Prince (leave him to give the Filk quest), each of these skills can be learned from a different NPC in the Assassin's Guild, each with their own quest and prerequisites?

I just want to point out that there are already several paid assassinations in the early-mid game: Kranach, Keethrax/Jharod, Guth'Alak, Thrundarr. Doing one or more of these could be a prerequisite. Then the Prince asks you to kill someone contrary to your current alignment, to prove that you don't care about morality one way or the other, just about getting the job done.

If L, kill Barbarian
If N, kill Bart
If C, kill Kherab

Barbarian seems too easy. Village elder sounds better.

I like, but if it gives Alertness + Find Weakness then it has to be very late game. Availability of Alertness and Find Weakness are a huge deal in race/class power.

I'll state, again, that I think Alertness is one of those skills - much like spears - that is vastly overrated. Not because it's not good - it's very nice - but because people have over time ascribed some sort of near mythic power to it. (possibly because you can't wish for it) It's not that powerful.

Also, is making the game a little easier that bad? Why so much resistance to it? This isn't something you'd be able to get until level 20 anyway - by this point, the early game (where alertness is most useful) would be over.

Yeah, I think people attach so much value to Alertness mainly because it's very difficult to obtain if you don't have it initially.

If Bart gave Alertness and someone was proposing that the Assassin's Guild gave Tactics, I'm sure people would be saying that that would be OP as well.

Al: Totally agree. No one even mentioned Dodge, for example, eveb though it's a very nice skill and gives you an extra 10 DV, which is a lot for lower level characters.

It's something that has been irritating me since the beginning of the Ressurection. Everytime something nice is implemented (even *gardening* for goodness sake!) there seems to be a strong knee jerk reaction from a lot of posters to claim it's OP, whereas there's little or no reaction to the things that make the game harder. (equipment destruction being doubled, stats being much harder to train, etc.) I don't really understand this reaction, but it can lead to a situation where (if Thomas were to use it to gauge game balance) you wind up with an immensely boring, bland game because every good or fun item or skill or quest has been nerfed to the point where it's no longer fun or exciting to obtain them.

My goal, with every RFE and bug I've posted, has been to make the game more interesting and enjoyable. If your idea of an enjoyable game is one in which every aspect is perfectly balanced and you have little chance of luck, race, class, or NPCs making the game more or less difficult, then why not just play DCSS?

I think that giving every character access to all of the game's best skills is a bad thing for exactly the reason that you mention: It makes the game less fun because it reduces variety between the classes. I don't want every character to get Alertness and Find Weakness. If anything, I think it would probably be better if it weren't possible for every character to get all of the thief skills, tactics, backstabbing, TWC, etc. I've been finding playing Chaos Knights without Healing to be quite interesting. Why does it make the game more interesting and enjoyable if you're making changes that tend to make every character play exactly the same?

That's, incidentally, also why I advocated for making stat potentials meaningful and herbs less powerful. Yes, it makes the game harder. But it means that playing a character with 11 To and 14 potential is appreciably different from one with 20 To and 34 potential, rather than in 1.1.1, where both characters end up with the same stats by level 10.

[edit]Incidentally, IMHO, the biggest advantage to characters with Alertness is 90% spell resistance against the ACW and Archmage. Dodge is a junk skill because pretty much any class that doesn't start with it cannot ever raise it above 60, which gives, what, 3 DV? Try playing an elf on a non-dodge class.

FWIW, I appreciate most of the changes that have made the game harder, especially the way herbs/potentials work now (though potentials are still buggy) I meant, you rarely see people oppose an idea because "it makes the game harder" as their sole reason, but often changes are resisted because "it makes the game too easy", even if those changes actually make the game *better*. In other words, I'm not looking at this from a hard/easy standpoint, but a fun/less fun. Duelists and Wizards are both pretty easy to win with, Mindcrafters and Merchants hard. I play Duelists and Mindcrafters all the time, because I think they're lots of fun. I rarely play wizards and haven't played a merchant in like 7 years, because they bore the crap out of me.

Anyway, I think being able to have more control over what skills my character can learn in-game makes it a more fun and interesting experience. I like that my ranger can learn to cast a few spells, or that my wizard can be a fighter if he wants to. I don't really think making Alertness a trainable skill for mid-level PCs will suddenly homoganise all the classes, it'll just give you more options.

Also, you completely missed my point about Dodge. Making it a trainable skill will allow you to get to 100% easily, making it much more useful, drastically improving it's usefulness and applicability. But nobody has made an issue about it because the general consenses is "Dodge sucks." But how many characters die to melee attacks vs how many die to magic?

Sorry if my English/spelling sucks. I'm typing this on a phone; something these forums make very frustrating to do.

Why not have all skills trainable then? Just have a guy in Dwarftown who will train any skill for 1000 gold each. Heck, let's make him sell spellbooks and give you class powers from other classes while we're at it. And he'll crown you with your choice of artifact. That way, you get the ultimate in character customizability!

Dodge at 100 still sucks. It just sucks less. I rarely bother to train the skill even for classes that have it.

For a character weilding a THS or two weapons with crappy Dx, who only has 10 or 15 DV, an extra 10 DV and an increased chance to dodge melee or missiles is quite nice. Also, I'm suggesting having these skills trainable in exchange for doing a quest because it seems thematically appropriate. Do you think the Druid training Herbalism in exchange for his quest is OP? The Malicious Doctor? The Dwarven Elder? Each of these NPCs teach skills far more powerful than alertness. If you want to find the right spellbooks, visit the library, not Dwarftown.

Also, ADOM is a game that is *highly* pro customization. It's even stated in the manuel, and I think it's appropriate for a game of this size and length. Rigid and highly specialized classes work better for smaller games (like Cardinal Quest). In a game like ADOM, diversity and customization should be expected and encouraged.

You can't have diversity if your goal is to make every character identical. That's literally the opposite of diversity. Most characters in ADOM are already pretty similar, especially later in the game... if anything, I think the game needs more specialization rather than less. I think it is a good thing that not every character can get Alertness and Find Weakness and Dodge. I think it's good that there's a reason to play a Dark Elf or an Orc.

I disagree that Herbalism is better than Alertness, FWIW. Herbalism is a convenience skill. Alertness is a lifesaving skill. Healing and literacy are probably better, yes.

My goal definitely isn't to make every character identical... I really don't understand why you think that is what I'm suggesting. If you read my posts here I'm very much of a roleplayer and enjoy unusual challenges and am frequently annoyed by formulaic players who always try to get the same gear or insist on only using spear+shield even when far more interesting weapons are generated. I use wishes on esoteric things and value creating an interesting story over maxing everything out.

That being said, Herbalism is definitely a lifesaving skilll, if only indirectly. I've had many characters (especially my illiterate barbarians) saved by a couple blessed spensweed or pepper petals, and being able to max out dex and toughness is a huge help. I realize you can pick herbs then id and uncurse, but by the time most of my characters cam do that, I'm past the point where I usually die anyway. (I'm at the point where if I can make it to Dwarftown, I can usually win if I'm patient)

I'm with JellySlayer on this one. I oppose the idea of giving Alertness too easily because it will become seen as a mandatory thing. Also it does make casters much easier though (though, as you say, by late game it's harder to train). Still, tie it to something that really pushes a choice like assassinating resurrected Khelevaster or the water dragon and then it becomes a worthy prize for a risky endeavour that few would take on.

Note: my argument was just about the relative value of skills (I don't think Alertness is so disproportionately good as some people think - I just think it's a good skill, like other good skills, but people attach more value to it for being almost unavailable in-game).

About the assassin's guild giving that or other skills, I guess it's OK as long as the quest is not trivial, as has been mentioned. Doing some really high-impact, high-risk killing(s) would be nice. The last thing we need is more "perform [trivial, repetitive action] 50 times" quests, there's already one and that's one too much IMO.