I totally agree, it's really cheap to be able to teleport to stuff knowing where it is in advance, when the PC has no in-game means to know. This feature should be simple to implement (at least for bosses and items, moving actual rooms like Darkforge vaults sounds more difficult) and it would make the game significantly more interesting.

The likes of DarkForge can be made to come in one of 3 or 4 similar but different layouts. You might have a good idea of it once exploring a bit, but at least you wouldn't be able to just teleport to exactly the right place after initially entering.

Grey's idea sounds perfect.

I knew someone would try to nerf Darkforge somehow :p

It's just an extra scroll, zap, casting. Will in some cases just delay the raid.

Every pc doesn't eat the first kobold they kill.

You do need the extra scroll first! That's a start!

For Darkforge, I have an idea. Split the current weapon room into two separate rooms with a wall between them, then add two more rooms that are also 4x4 in size, and resize the pool room to be 4x4 in size...

Then randomly choose which of the rooms is a weapon room (x2), an armour room, a pool room, or a danger room (x2). The danger rooms would house a heap of steel golems, so teleporting in would mean you're surrounded by them.

Oh, and make item detect and monster detect fail in Darkforge, so players can't just detect the right room.

Griff's grave can stay where it is, with teleportation an option. I don't see a need to change that one at all - it's an early game task, let it stay a little easier for the "easier" classes. But the graveyard level itself should have a bit of randomisation, so that the player has to find their way through the left side of the level.

I don't see why item and monster detection scrolls/wands should fail. They're exactly for situations like that, after all. A player that saves those items for orb guardians, vaults, DF, etc. is doing it right. Teleporting because you (the human player) knows where things are from other games is cheap and unrealistic, teleporting because the PC knows where they are because he used magic to do so is fine.

I say apply as many suggestions made here as possible so that stuff is not always in exactly the same place, but keep detection scrolls/wands working as usual.

Generally, I agree with you, detection scrolls/wands are for that sort of use. But I feel like Darkforge for those with detection wands/scrolls, teleportation wands and teleport control becomes just too easy as a way to get some quality armour and weapons. Darkforge raids should be risky for any lower-level PC, not just some of them. If the PC can't discover which rooms contain the desirable things, teleporting to a room at random risks landing in the middle of a heap of golems who will immediately start attacking.

And if you think about it, there's a suitable way to explain it, too. In Darkforge, the air itself is filled with emanations from golem creation and weapon/armour creation - any sort of detection method would fail when even the air itself looks like golem and weapons in terms of magic.

It is best to stick to suggestions that are as simple as possible and make use of existing game mechanics. Good for simplicity, consistency and minimal extra coding and bug testing. This is a good example. If you feel telerobbing DF is cheap, why not just forbid teleportation? This has about the same effect but with minimal need for new rules or exceptions. There are already a few places where you can't teleport.

Not saying I would be in favour. But if something has to be changed, let's keep it simple.

That is indeed the simplest solution, but I think it makes things a bit more boring - less tools in the box to play with.

KISS principle is the one that causes knights in Wesnoth to heal longer. They represent armour as extra HP, because they fear complexity so much.

My goal isn't to completely stop Darkforge raids. If TB didn't want to allow raids, he would put steel golems inside loot rooms. I just want them to make sense - you shouldn't be able to teleport without knowing the destination.

I was mainly responding to Aielyn. First randomizing and then forbidding item detection too is overcomplicating things, that would be introducing two new features at the same time to solve one problem. By then you might as well not be able to teleport.

I didn't mean to say that randomized locations are overly complicated by themselves. That is an idea I like, although it still sounds heavy on the coding. I'm saying this because the ADOM 1 code is (according to Thomas) a bit messy and difficult to modify. That is why entirely new ideas like this are perhaps better suggested for ADOM 2.

But, most everything in ADOM is about the experience, memory, spoiledness of the player. The character/items has a marginal effect on the end result.

Stingray1, but what would ADOM become if all randomness was removed? If all levels were comletely fixed? Would you like it? It would allow a very spoiled player to win 100% of the time, but would it be good?
The unpredictability is what I like in roguelikes, and increasing it is mostly good.

Ok, guys I give up. I tried to keep those early game raids, but alas I cannot get myself to disagree with Spellweaver.
Please guys, let's fix Darkforge.

I vote for no teleport.

No teleport would make DFG lose much of its appeal [aside from artificer]. Raiding DFG is not some kind of gamebreaker that needs to be fixed. Random choice between several layouts seems like a good balancing act between making it more interesting and making it useless.

Now with that I cannot agree. Some of the items founds there are used through the entirety of most of my games. Items you are likely to only find next in the Casino. Maybe DH.

I don't think I've ever not raided DF. Changing the layout. Will still raid the place. It's so irresistible. But I agree it will be more interesting.

Man, I must be the only one who only tends to find ugly clothes and quarterstaves there :P

Yesterday I found Purifier and Wyrmlance, but that's the exception. My luck is usually as good as yours. The crown of science is nice for bookreading, however.

As for Darkforge raiding being overpowered/unbalanced: it's something you can do it at early levels, but there are risks. Golems could open the doors or clutter around the stairs. Receiving a single hit from one of them probably means game over. And you aren't even guaranteed anything short of the well-balanced crown and some gold. By the time you can loot the place by attacking the golems face on instead of evading them, the items are much less likely to make a difference. You get some xp and loot that's unlikely to severely contrast with your current gear.

I believe its okay as it is. Also, note how Darkforge is probably the source of tradeoffs in the game. Raid? May provide nice items, could go wrong. CoS? Huge Learning boost and =Fire, but dooms. Shield or raw steel? 18 DV and two immunities, but corrupts. Amulet of raw steel? Huge Pe bonus and nice intrinsics, but corrupts.