[Balance] Slightly randomize locations of key towns, dungeons, NPCs
issueid=1322 11-01-2012 10:18 AM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by b0rsuk: 5
[Balance] Slightly randomize locations of key towns, dungeons, NPCs

An experienced or spoiled player doesn't need to explore the wilderness, use scrolls of Magic Mapping, Detect Monster or Detect Item. "The stick of truth ? Enter XYZ, teleport 8 west, 35 south and talk to the Foozle."

This simple idea could change it. Blup's mom could be spawned somewhere in a radius of 5 squares. Darkforge treasure vaults can be moved a few squares left or right each game. The grave of Griff can be in some random location in the final chamber (I'm not sure Griff doesn't start standing on it, but I managed to teleport on top of the grave after waking Griff). Ancient Chaos Wyrm and Chaos Archmage can be in a slightly random position (within a distance of 3 squares from the altar).

I'm proposing this to make the game less formulaic. Just make it so these locations can't be played with your eyes closed.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1322
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Linux
Status Implemented
Priority Unknown
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 5
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 5
Votes against this feature 5
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




11-01-2012 02:37 PM
Ancient Member
I totally agree, it's really cheap to be able to teleport to stuff knowing where it is in advance, when the PC has no in-game means to know. This feature should be simple to implement (at least for bosses and items, moving actual rooms like Darkforge vaults sounds more difficult) and it would make the game significantly more interesting.

11-01-2012 03:15 PM
Ancient Member
The likes of DarkForge can be made to come in one of 3 or 4 similar but different layouts. You might have a good idea of it once exploring a bit, but at least you wouldn't be able to just teleport to exactly the right place after initially entering.

11-01-2012 04:06 PM
Senior Member
Grey's idea sounds perfect.

11-01-2012 05:03 PM
Ancient Member
I knew someone would try to nerf Darkforge somehow :p

11-01-2012 06:23 PM
Ancient Member
It's just an extra scroll, zap, casting. Will in some cases just delay the raid.

Every pc doesn't eat the first kobold they kill.

11-01-2012 08:50 PM
Ancient Member
You do need the extra scroll first! That's a start!

11-02-2012 12:30 AM
Senior Member
For Darkforge, I have an idea. Split the current weapon room into two separate rooms with a wall between them, then add two more rooms that are also 4x4 in size, and resize the pool room to be 4x4 in size...

Then randomly choose which of the rooms is a weapon room (x2), an armour room, a pool room, or a danger room (x2). The danger rooms would house a heap of steel golems, so teleporting in would mean you're surrounded by them.

Oh, and make item detect and monster detect fail in Darkforge, so players can't just detect the right room.

Griff's grave can stay where it is, with teleportation an option. I don't see a need to change that one at all - it's an early game task, let it stay a little easier for the "easier" classes. But the graveyard level itself should have a bit of randomisation, so that the player has to find their way through the left side of the level.

11-02-2012 09:48 AM
Ancient Member
I don't see why item and monster detection scrolls/wands should fail. They're exactly for situations like that, after all. A player that saves those items for orb guardians, vaults, DF, etc. is doing it right. Teleporting because you (the human player) knows where things are from other games is cheap and unrealistic, teleporting because the PC knows where they are because he used magic to do so is fine.

I say apply as many suggestions made here as possible so that stuff is not always in exactly the same place, but keep detection scrolls/wands working as usual.

11-02-2012 12:47 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
I don't see why item and monster detection scrolls/wands should fail. They're exactly for situations like that, after all. A player that saves those items for orb guardians, vaults, DF, etc. is doing it right. Teleporting because you (the human player) knows where things are from other games is cheap and unrealistic, teleporting because the PC knows where they are because he used magic to do so is fine.

I say apply as many suggestions made here as possible so that stuff is not always in exactly the same place, but keep detection scrolls/wands working as usual.
Generally, I agree with you, detection scrolls/wands are for that sort of use. But I feel like Darkforge for those with detection wands/scrolls, teleportation wands and teleport control becomes just too easy as a way to get some quality armour and weapons. Darkforge raids should be risky for any lower-level PC, not just some of them. If the PC can't discover which rooms contain the desirable things, teleporting to a room at random risks landing in the middle of a heap of golems who will immediately start attacking.

And if you think about it, there's a suitable way to explain it, too. In Darkforge, the air itself is filled with emanations from golem creation and weapon/armour creation - any sort of detection method would fail when even the air itself looks like golem and weapons in terms of magic.

11-02-2012 12:56 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Aielyn
Generally, I agree with you, detection scrolls/wands are for that sort of use. But I feel like Darkforge for those with detection wands/scrolls, teleportation wands and teleport control becomes just too easy as a way to get some quality armour and weapons.
It is best to stick to suggestions that are as simple as possible and make use of existing game mechanics. Good for simplicity, consistency and minimal extra coding and bug testing. This is a good example. If you feel telerobbing DF is cheap, why not just forbid teleportation? This has about the same effect but with minimal need for new rules or exceptions. There are already a few places where you can't teleport.

Not saying I would be in favour. But if something has to be changed, let's keep it simple.

11-02-2012 01:06 PM
Ancient Member
That is indeed the simplest solution, but I think it makes things a bit more boring - less tools in the box to play with.

11-02-2012 02:27 PM
Junior Member
KISS principle is the one that causes knights in Wesnoth to heal longer. They represent armour as extra HP, because they fear complexity so much.

My goal isn't to completely stop Darkforge raids. If TB didn't want to allow raids, he would put steel golems inside loot rooms. I just want them to make sense - you shouldn't be able to teleport without knowing the destination.

11-02-2012 02:38 PM
Ancient Member
I was mainly responding to Aielyn. First randomizing and then forbidding item detection too is overcomplicating things, that would be introducing two new features at the same time to solve one problem. By then you might as well not be able to teleport.

I didn't mean to say that randomized locations are overly complicated by themselves. That is an idea I like, although it still sounds heavy on the coding. I'm saying this because the ADOM 1 code is (according to Thomas) a bit messy and difficult to modify. That is why entirely new ideas like this are perhaps better suggested for ADOM 2.

11-02-2012 04:00 PM
Ancient Member
But, most everything in ADOM is about the experience, memory, spoiledness of the player. The character/items has a marginal effect on the end result.

11-02-2012 06:57 PM
Senior Member
Stingray1, but what would ADOM become if all randomness was removed? If all levels were comletely fixed? Would you like it? It would allow a very spoiled player to win 100% of the time, but would it be good?
The unpredictability is what I like in roguelikes, and increasing it is mostly good.

11-02-2012 07:09 PM
Ancient Member
Ok, guys I give up. I tried to keep those early game raids, but alas I cannot get myself to disagree with Spellweaver.
Please guys, let's fix Darkforge.

I vote for no teleport.

11-02-2012 08:18 PM
Ancient Member
No teleport would make DFG lose much of its appeal [aside from artificer]. Raiding DFG is not some kind of gamebreaker that needs to be fixed. Random choice between several layouts seems like a good balancing act between making it more interesting and making it useless.

11-02-2012 08:57 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
Raiding DFG is not some kind of gamebreaker...
Now with that I cannot agree. Some of the items founds there are used through the entirety of most of my games. Items you are likely to only find next in the Casino. Maybe DH.

I don't think I've ever not raided DF. Changing the layout. Will still raid the place. It's so irresistible. But I agree it will be more interesting.

11-02-2012 09:48 PM
Ancient Member
Man, I must be the only one who only tends to find ugly clothes and quarterstaves there :P

11-03-2012 01:40 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
Man, I must be the only one who only tends to find ugly clothes and quarterstaves there :P
Yesterday I found Purifier and Wyrmlance, but that's the exception. My luck is usually as good as yours. The crown of science is nice for bookreading, however.

As for Darkforge raiding being overpowered/unbalanced: it's something you can do it at early levels, but there are risks. Golems could open the doors or clutter around the stairs. Receiving a single hit from one of them probably means game over. And you aren't even guaranteed anything short of the well-balanced crown and some gold. By the time you can loot the place by attacking the golems face on instead of evading them, the items are much less likely to make a difference. You get some xp and loot that's unlikely to severely contrast with your current gear.

I believe its okay as it is. Also, note how Darkforge is probably the source of tradeoffs in the game. Raid? May provide nice items, could go wrong. CoS? Huge Learning boost and =Fire, but dooms. Shield or raw steel? 18 DV and two immunities, but corrupts. Amulet of raw steel? Huge Pe bonus and nice intrinsics, but corrupts.

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