Making killer bugs harder to tame?
issueid=1361 11-29-2012 10:59 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by grobblewobble: 72
Making killer bugs harder to tame?

A level 1 bard can, with some practice, tame killer bugs from BUGWIL quite easily. This makes all other animals practically redundant as pets. It also means bards can demolish darkforge straight off the bat with ease. Perhaps something ought to be done? Like making them more resistant to music?
Issue Details
Issue Number 1361
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 6
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 3
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




11-30-2012 01:03 PM
Senior Member
Are they that easy? I had porblems taming even grizzly bear on level 1. At least, I spent enough turns that, if it were a killer bug, it could slash me in pieces haundred times.

11-30-2012 01:08 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Spellweaver
Are they that easy? I had porblems taming even grizzly bear on level 1. At least, I spent enough turns that, if it were a killer bug, it could slash me in pieces haundred times.
I tried this once with a Heir bard to see how overpowered it can be. You will want to start with the Music skill above 80, and even so it took me many attempts to tame a killer bug.

For those who are hellbent in crippling the bug temple, maybe a level restriction could work.

11-30-2012 02:40 PM
Ancient Member
It doesn't become easy until music is at or near 100. So a non-drakeling will have to wait until level 2 or maybe even 3, I guess. You also need a blessed instrument.

12-01-2012 10:42 AM
Ancient Member
Maybe putting a level restriction on BUGWIL, similar to other special locations in the game. Keep the 100 dead characters pre-requisite. I suggest level 24. As the original I idea, I think, was to only allow experienced players in.

edit- My appologies anon123.

12-01-2012 01:30 PM
Senior Member
Do all bards who manage to tame a bug manage to win?
No? How high is the percent? 50? 10?
Why should it be fixed if it does not break the game?

Edit: not even metioned that not 100% of bards manage to do it if they try.

12-01-2012 03:53 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Spellweaver
Why should it be fixed if it does not break the game?
The point is mainly that it reduces variety. When you have direct access to the best possible animal, that makes all other animals irrelevant as pets. Why would you ever bother taming an ant queen / tarantula / lightning lizard / giant boar when you get can something that kills everything before the ACW in one hit? But always using the same pet is boring.

I do also think that having such an overpowered companion right from the beginning increases your chances to win, actually. Of course you can still mess it up, you always can. But the early to midgame becomes much easier.

Btw, I agree with putting up a level restriction, that seems a good solution.

12-01-2012 04:30 PM
Ancient Member
I think it's a bit more than just the variety bit. It makes the early game just too easy: Using an overpowered pet to handle threats, gives bards a massive edge over other classes.

You are taking the most powerful 'animal' in the game.

Remember we are talking very early game. It's nothing to lose a few very early game characters, one will eventually tame a bug.

Seems broken to me.

Edit - adding that colon after easy

12-01-2012 05:01 PM
Ancient Member
Perhaps the reward items should also be removed. What's that, you get free items for wading through a dungeon killing some bugs, then kicking statues? Overpoweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeered. :D

12-01-2012 05:13 PM
Senior Member
I think barbarian class shoud be removed. It makes early to mid game too easy compared to bards. As well as late game, unlike killer bug.
/that was sarcasm/
Edit: Having a barbarian class also removes variety: why would I take some fighter or bard, or ranger if I can have a barbarian?

12-01-2012 05:59 PM
Ancient Member
This discussion is about the possibility of taming a guaranteed killer bug during the early game.

If you don't think there is something wrong with that, then simply say so.

12-01-2012 06:13 PM
Senior Member
I already said it. I just show that your logic is a bit wrong.

12-01-2012 06:23 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Spellweaver
I already said it. I just show that your logic is a bit wrong.
You were talking about winning, we are talking about early game. Which part of my logic is wrong?

Thanx for clearing it up a bit.

12-01-2012 08:17 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Spellweaver
Are they that easy? I had porblems taming even grizzly bear on level 1. At least, I spent enough turns that, if it were a killer bug, it could slash me in pieces haundred times.
I can't help but think that this is the real source of disagreement. If you seriously think that starting the game with a killer bug does not break the game, I don't know what to say. Most character deaths happen in the early to midgame imo. If you make it to the endgame, you will likely win unless you play with severe restrictions, or unless you arenīt as spoiled as most of us and run into the archmage without death ray resistance or something. Once you have a pet like this, there is some danger it will turn on you but otherwise the game is over.

Perhaps I should explain the tricks you need to use in more detail? It really can be done very reliably. I shouldn't have said "level 1", at that level it is often not very safe yet. The steps are:

1. Take Heir.
2. Gain levels to increase music to 100; make sure you have a blessed instrument.
3. Wield at least 2 torches to increase sight radius.
4. Enter BUGWIL; stay close to the edge at any time so you can flee in one move.
5. Start waking up greater claw bug and taming them one by one. Command them to kill each other, but don't wake up several at once.
6. If in danger, flee and come back.
7. Once there are no more greater claw bugs in between you and the killer bugs, order your pet greater claw bug to attack a killer bug, then tame that one. Flee and come back if you need to.

With some practice there is very little risk in it.

12-03-2012 10:33 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Spellweaver
I already said it. I just show that your logic is a bit wrong.
You used reducto ad absurdium, which is both rude and dismissive of the original point. If you reply to every suggestion of balance with "Might as well remove barbarians!" then you're not really contributing anything to the discussion. Defend how taming killer bugs is within the balance of the game instead of resorting to straw man arguments.

12-03-2012 11:37 AM
Pim Pim is offline
Member
I think that the requirements / costs of achieving this level of power are sufficient already to maintain game balance.

12-03-2012 12:39 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Pim
I think that the requirements / costs of achieving this level of power are sufficient already to maintain game balance.
Well, the costs are getting your instrument blessed (not even really necessary) and gaining a level or two.. Ok, you also need to take heir, but that is not much of a cost because seven league boots are very much worth it in their own right.

The reward is that you become invincible. At least until the fight against the ACW. You will be able to kill steel golems and shopkeepers with ease, which is by the way also one of the few ways to rob shops with zero negative consequences. There is literally no monster or combination of monsters that will stand a chance against you for a very long time.

So .. could you please explain what makes it balanced in your opinion?

12-08-2012 09:28 AM
The Creator
I have increased the risk of trying this.

12-09-2012 03:10 AM
Pim Pim is offline
Member
Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble
Well, the costs are getting your instrument blessed (not even really necessary) and gaining a level or two.. Ok, you also need to take heir, but that is not much of a cost because seven league boots are very much worth it in their own right.

The reward is that you become invincible. At least until the fight against the ACW. ...

So .. could you please explain what makes it balanced in your opinion?
You must play a bard.

12-28-2012 06:56 PM
Ancient Member
It can be done without Heir, but is much trickier, obviously.

Items are all nice and fine, you can easily set up a gremlin bomb with the bug in a locked room doing all the killing and just w5 on D:8 for 5k turns.
Bards start with a guaranteed wand of light that can probably have 1d12 charges. Two uses in gremlin cave and you're lvl 3-4 with music at 100.
Then off to BugWil for a taming session.

The main problem with this strategy is this: having a killer bug and leveling it up to very experienced by slaying up to 20 other greater/killer bugs gives you a powerful pet that does the job for you, but your character suffers due to not leveling up her/himself.
This has always been the problem for me - not enough weapon marks, low char level, necessity to guide the bug around trickier dungeons so that it follows you step by step rather than getting stuck somewhere, the bugs tamed in this way often refuse to do what they are told (I guess around 3-4 times out of 10 they ignore you, especially with obviously lower CH stat at the stage of char development).
Additionally, one fireball trap or booby trapped doors is enough to get you back to new char generation - there's no defense against a very or extremely experienced killer bug with 150 speed, 9 attacks per round and penetrating hits. When it becomes hostile you're dead, plain and simple. It happens more often than not.

I believe that taming the killer bugs is the simplest part and certainly not one that yields highest profits.
The toughest part is to stay alive AFTER that and keep the bug alive as well.
I lost more bards due to not paying attention all the time than ones I managed to get to chaos gate, using this tactics.
Having a pet like this means you need to be more than careful because so many things can go wrong and when there's a killer bug involved - they usually end in PC's death.

So IMO this strategy gives you some upper hand early but has a potential of quickly killing your char no matter the level or items you have, at any point in the game as long as the bug is with you. It's a tough tradeoff at best, the way I see it.

As for clearing dark forge - it's also tricky and nowhere near as simple as some people make it out to be. I had bugs panic and turn hostile, they got badly injured by searing flames from golems, they got hit and killed in 2 hits...
Still it was possible to clear DF on exp lvl 2-3 with enough luck, yet not get a single point of experience for your char because the bug did all the work.

12-28-2012 07:19 PM
Ancient Member
Yes the whole problem was the easy early game. It is very simple to just leave the bug behind when you're done abusing it's power. :)

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