Platinum girdle behaviour
issueid=1427 12-12-2012 10:59 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Grey: 58
Platinum girdle behaviour
Have platinum test for lawfuls dying in sight
Relating to this: http://www.adom.de/forums/project.ph...=1113#note8209

Platinum should be the most prestigious of all awards in my opinion. And importantly it should be relatively immune to "gaming". Currently to get the kitty ring you can do certain gamey things like using alarm traps or taming a cat and ordering it to kill a moloch. I'm okay with that personally - it involves clever and ingenious techniques. But seeing that used for the ultimate lawful reward seems wrong. People shouldn't be using pets or traps to kill lawfuls so their own hands are clean. But I also agree that the issue before of lawfuls dying out of sight to a trap was a problem, so it's right to change that. How to strike a balance then?

I suggest the following conditions for the platinum girdle (depending on how easy they are to code):
1. No chaotic acts committed (as at present)
2. No killing of lawful creatures (as at present)
3. No lawfuls killed by your pets
4. No lawfuls allowed to die in sight range

The last two should be not too hard to code in (check if killer is pet, check if death happens on tile visible to player). They catch out abuses like letting the Dwarftown demon kill the smith, and keep the requirement of not letting Khelly die. The idea is not just that you act lawfully, but that you protect other lawful creatures around you. If you can't act in time to save them then you're not worthy of the girdle. There is still some chance of unfairness (blink dog teleports onto a trap next to you) or abuses (tame the blink dog and order it to attack a moloch before closing a door so you can't see them) but these are much more minor and rare. It strikes a balance between two imperfect systems.

Comments and other ideas welcome! Overall we want something that is restrictive without being unfair and also simple enough overall (no huge list of special conditions).
Issue Details
Issue Number 1427
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 7
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 1
Attachments 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-12-2012 12:02 PM
Ancient Member
I think this solution would be just great (in fact I was thinking exactly the same, but hadn't posted it).

However, I'm not sure if it's true that it's easy to implement or not... ADOM seems to keep a long of all deaths, and also of deaths caused directly by the character, it probably doesn't keep a register of visible deaths. If ADOM has been programmed in such a way that it's easy to inject code when someone dies, then it will be easy, if not, it will be hard.

But anyway, of course, that's for TB to say. What I can say is that I like this idea. It keeps the spirit of needing to be absolutely lawful to get the girdle, while not having the absurd "10000-sided die" factor.

I suggest an extra condition: if you have spoken to a lawful character and he asked you for something, you have to do it. For example, if you speak to the tiny girl, she asks you to retrieve his dog but you don't do anything, then you can't get the girdle either.

Similarly, if you speak to someone and asks you for company, you have to say yes always.
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12-12-2012 12:02 PM
Ancient Member
Sorry, duplicate post by mistake.
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12-12-2012 12:10 PM
Ancient Member
The problem with sight range (besides implementation) is that you can then teleport away when you see a lawful creature.
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12-12-2012 12:34 PM
Senior Member
How about this?

1. No chaotic acts committed (as at present)
2. No killing of lawful creatures (as at present)
3. No lawfuls killed by your pets (as above)
4. No pets may die
5. None of <list of lawful NPCs> may die (includes all lawful unique NPCs (except possibly the Dying Sage on death after talking, depending on whether we want saving him to be necessary), residents of Terinyo and Dwarftown (except possibly the Demented Ratling), and the Eternal Guardian)

Condition 4 addresses the "tame it and then send it to kill something stronger" issue, while Condition 5 prevents use of abuse tactics to get rid of lawful beings that the PC may want dead - indeed, they can't be killed by anything. Because they're uniques or residents of "safe" locations, their deaths should not happen. In the case of the Dwarftown demon, you must protect every member of the town, none may die to it. As such, many may choose not to do the quest at all, as it has a relatively weak reward (mostly ratling fodder) and a high risk of destroying the chance to get the platinum girdle.

As a result, there is still a way to deal with regular hostile Lawful beings, using natural traps, etc. This basically applies to non-Dwarftown Dwarves, Solars, Ki-Rins, Blink Dogs, White Unicorns, Royal Guardians, and possibly the Ratling Guardians. And, of course, any other new random Lawful beings that might be added to the game.

I don't mind allowing the PC to use "cheap tricks" (they're not all that cheap) to deal with such regular Lawful beings. So long as eating Blink Dog corpses is a chaotic act (if it isn't, it should be), it'll only be a way to save the PC's life, and I'm alright with that.
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12-12-2012 04:20 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Aielyn
How about this?

1. No chaotic acts committed (as at present)
2. No killing of lawful creatures (as at present)
3. No lawfuls killed by your pets (as above)
4. No pets may die
5. None of <list of lawful NPCs> may die (includes all lawful unique NPCs (except possibly the Dying Sage on death after talking, depending on whether we want saving him to be necessary), residents of Terinyo and Dwarftown (except possibly the Demented Ratling), and the Eternal Guardian)

I like these conditions for a difficult lawful challenge. Along with a little cleanup of which acts are flagged as chaotic.

  • Is robbing a royal vault chaotic? The guardians don't seem to care whether or not I pick up the gold.
  • Is eating a sentient creature or humanoid corpse chaotic?
  • Is attacking non-hostile animals when hungry chaotic? If so, it shouldn't be.
  • Are blink dogs actually sentient? Should it be chaotic to eat the corpse of a blink dog found lying on the ground? (That's happened to me a couple of times, when it was killed by a hostile critter elsewhere in the dungeon--also in the Banshee level)
  • Is sipping from pools chaotic? If not, should it be? You're flirting with corruption to gain power, even if it's not guaranteed.
  • Is giving the weird tome to the MM chaotic? The MM is definitely a chaotic NPC, and who knows what 'mischief' he needs it for...
  • Is robbing darkforge chaotic?
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