Originally Posted by
Dogbreath
Dipping rings repeatedly for the hopes of multiple wishes kind of defeats that.
But we are talking about 2-3 wishes, not dozens like with gremlin bombing or any of the previous scumming methods. Please don't compare mechanisms that are way out of scale to this.
If you are a lucky and diligent "dipper" then you may get perhaps 5 RoDS in a game using dipping alone. That's still way out of gremlin bomb league.
Originally Posted by
Dogbreath
That's true, and I'm sorry if I can across as overbearing with that - your definition of enjoyable is just as valid as mine. I would say, in ADOM, I define "enjoyable" as finding new and exciting ways to overcome challenges. I don't particularly mind dying, since most of the time winning isn't really a huge priority, and I can always start over with another character. I will often just quit a character if I find they've become boring or hit a dead end. I find using the same cheap tricks or repetitive scumming as "boring."
At some point nothing surprises you in this game, unless it's a newly added feature. At that point, different things become interesting and challenging.
Old challenges become tedious because you know exactly how to beat them. The problem that I'm addressing in this thread is that TB removed a flexibility option that allowed the game to retain some of it's appeal despite knowing it very well.
Take the ancient chaos wyrm for example. One can defeat it with dragon slaying missiles, if you have them. Another way is frost or magic bolt or ice ball, for which you need a book, arguably a wand with many charges. Yet another is 7LB and +speed items that give you the option to hit and run.
Another choice is opened with girdle of giant strength and high PV, which allow you to face the wyrm toe to toe. On another occasion, you may just choose to throw a potion of cure corruption at it and finish it off with any of the above methods.
My point is that it is right now entirely dependent on items you find or more importantly - items you don't find.
Having the option to use wishes makes this a flexible situation and you can do it the way you like instead of being forced to whatever RNG thinks is best with its item drops.
When I'm playing a duelist and don't find a good weapon ANYWHERE, then am I expected to resort to missiles, wands of cold or potions of cure corruption, just because RNG decided I'm not going to be a full time duelist?
We're talking about as important a battle as the one at the top of the tower. In that case I should have played an archer or a wizard if everything boils down to that.
Instead, I used to have the third option - ring dipping. I'd get 2-3 wishes -
two or three tops - and get a nice one handed weapon, some piece of armor to have a safe PV margin and head to face the wyrm in direct melee combat, like a duelist is supposed to.
This is what I'm talking about, this is why I will grind and scum much longer than before and waste my time on treasure hunting - to get the same things and play my duelist as I want to play, not as RNG forces me to.
(For those who like to pick on details, duelist is just an example, one of many, that shows the general idea)
The challenge really shifted from getting enough stackable rings and potions of exchange - which in itself was an effort - to grinding through endless dungeons to find what I need in order to play comfortably.
It's no improvement, and rather quite the downgrade of gameplay quality.
Originally Posted by
Dogbreath
Perhaps a message indicating that it only happens once could suffice, since that seems to be the main objection now.
No, I disagree. Message or no message, the mechanism is wrong in principle.
Dipping shouldn't be restricted to one RoDS per character, that is my main objection.
It's illogical and counter-intuitive. It's an overkill and was intended as a fix to a non-existent issue.
That is why I advocate reversing it.