Points-based generation discussion (R65)

[shockeroo]

Edit:
There is now a RFE based on this discussion here.

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Posting this before making a feature request as I want to know what the consensus is.

As currently implemented, this feature feels almost pointless to me for the following reasons:

a) Answering questions is better. The highest strength I could get on a points-based human fighter was 19. I managed to get 21 by answering questions on my second try. I don't want to use points-based generation if it makes less powerful characters.

b) There seems to be further randomization after deciding your stats (+/-3 Strength on my human fighter). This is really annoying to me; if I'm making a points-based character, I want to decide what my stats are.

c) The range in which you can customize stats seems quite low (3 point range for Strength on my human fighter. Dark elf assassin behaved similarly.) I would prefer to be able to increase them as far as I had points, but for the cost to increase expotentially.

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To use this feature regularly, I would like to see:

i) Points-based characters with stats as high or low as possible with other methods.

ii) No further randomization after I allocate points.


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Also a note on the UI:

- I don't think we need to see the starsign, gender and profession mods on this screen. It would be a lot cleaner to just see the totals.

[pjsb1]

It seems fine to me, it actually seems more powerful than normal. Sometimes answering questions would be "better" but the questions are randomized so you might get questions that are worse for your character than points.

Note : I have not made many characters yet, as this has only been out for a few hours.

[Soirana]

a) Answering questions is better. The highest strength I could get on a points-based human fighter was 19. I managed to get 21 by answering questions on my second try. I don't want to use points-based generation if it makes less powerful characters.

b) There seems to be further randomization after deciding your stats (+/-3 Strength on my human fighter). This is really annoying to me; if I'm making a points-based character, I want to decide what my stats are.

I quick rolled through some and... I sorta disagree with points above. From the looks of it (I've rolled some orc and gnomes of different classes) point base is for race attributes. Then after allocating these class multipliers (+ randomization, hard to sayhow much exactly).
Gnomes had Learning in allocation phase of ~14, and all orcs seemed to have to ~16. Orc barbs had toughness og about 24-25 which while not superstellar seems to be okay. similar with gnome wizards.

Personally I need to experiment more (don't have enough time at moment), but this is not what I expected. I would say I expected to see my final stats at the moment I spend points, not something which might be ~10 points lower.

+graphical interface does not exist.... Steam users will be not happy.

p.s. 19 strength on human fighter seems reasonable for me.

[pjsb1]

+graphical interface does not exist.... Steam users will be not happy.

This is because the graphical interface is not yet done and this is, as the creator put it, "A true beta release". Also it isn't released on steam as of now.

[adom-admin]

+graphical interface does not exist.... Steam users will be not happy.

As I said in the blog post announcing this prerelease: It's a _prerelease_ and _beta_ and we decided to go for ASCII-only to get feedback, because the revised graphical interface is not yet ready. But it will be for the next Steam release.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

i) Points-based characters with stats as high or low as possible with other methods.

I disagree. Points-based character generation is an advantage (it allows you to choose your ideal stat priorities) and therefore it should have a disadvantage for balance.

Or, from a different point of view, with random generation there should be the treat of being able to get lucky and generate characters that you wouldn't be able to with point-based generation. Otherwise random generation becomes quite pointless.

[shockeroo]

I disagree. Points-based character generation is an advantage (it allows you to choose your ideal stat priorities) and therefore it should have a disadvantage for balance.

Or, from a different point of view, with random generation there should be the treat of being able to get lucky and generate characters that you wouldn't be able to with point-based generation. Otherwise random generation becomes quite pointless.

I *massively* disagree with this. The whole point of this for me is that I don't have to re-roll to get what I want. If it doesn't MAKE what I want, it's no use to me.

[Soirana]

I *massively* disagree with this. The whole point of this for me is that I don't have to re-roll to get what I want. If it doesn't MAKE what I want, it's no use to me.

If it worked how you want, what would be the point of random generation?

I think point based is something what guarantees be reasonable and playable character if I want to play on a rainy day. If I want to play eternium man or something like that I still expect to roll through random characters.

I think players who prefer better stats over anything else after 5 min of rolling will use old system and I fail to see a problem in that.

I don't about true beta vs untrue beta, but at least changelog would be nice. Otherwise outside of char creation I don't even know what to test...

[shockeroo]

edit: It is worse than disappointing. I tried rolling hobit assassin. I can't allocate a single point (even as a decrease) in neither mana nor strength. WTF?

Yeah, it really is very limiting. A bigger range is definitely needed.

If it worked how you want, what would be the point of random generation?

I would expect to have higher *average* stats on a random character, than if I'd min-maxed in a points-based system.

I'm also ok with maybe being able to get +1 max score on random/question generation; but I've made a ton of characters now, and I can consistently get as good or usually better on any individual stat by answering questions.

I really think I should not be able to get better average results in the stats I care about through the question system, than I can get by just allocating points. To my mind, the points-based system is supposed to save me time answering all the questions to get the same results.

[Soirana]

I really think I should not be able to get better average results in the stats I care about through the question system, than I can get by just allocating points. To my mind, the points-based system is supposed to save me time answering all the questions to get the same results.

That's a good point. Player is not supposed to know exact effects of questions, although, in this age anyone who wants will get to the table.